Olympus Inferno and War 08/08/08
The brief August 2008 war between Georgia and Russia continues to spawn films
Channel One, the same Russian TV network that produced the blockbusters Night Watch and Day Watch has made an action movie about the Georgia War, titled Olympus Inferno. The movie features two main characters, an American entomologist studying butterflies in South Ossetia (you can hear him yelling "What the hell is going on?" a lot in the trailer) and a Russian female journalist. The two characters must work together to get back to Russian lines after getting swept up in the August 8, 2008 Georgian offensive against the separatist enclave of South Ossetia.
Russia has finally produced a Paul Greengrass-style action movie, complete with headache-inducing jerky camera work and explosions. Click on the video above to watch the trailer for Olympus Inferno
Anti-Saakashvili Russian Documentary: War 08/08/08
Propaganda to Influence U.S. Elections?
This fictional movie comes on the heels of the documentary War 08/08/08: The Art of Betrayal, which starts by claiming that U.S. "mercenaries" fought alongside Georgian troops in the conflict and were found among the dead during the fighting. The movie's website, which went up before the presidential election in November 2008, suspiciously uses the phrase "Change We Need" at the top in red letters, perhaps alluding to President Obama's then-campaign slogan and hinting that American voters should vote for Barack Obama. The filmmakers behind the Russia.ru multimedia site charged that John McCain's presidential campaign exploited the Georgia War in an attempt to improve the Republican candidate's then-flagging poll numbers versus Obama.
Such unsubstantiated claims are reminiscent of Cold War-style propaganda in 1980 that accused then GOP presidential candidate Ronald Reagan of being a trigger-happy cowboy who would blow up the world in a nuclear showdown with the USSR. The "mercenaries" depicted in the video are actually among the several hundred U.S. Marines who were sent to Georgia to train Georgian peacekeepers bound for Iraq and Afghanistan, and who supplied the Georgians with their Marine camouflage battle dress uniforms (the only difference between the Marine and Georgian uniforms were the helmets and red Georgian flag patches sewn on the shoulders).
Separating the Facts from the Messengers
Nonetheless, the film shows grainy images, purpotedly coming from captured cellphone cameras left behind by retreating Georgian troops. One video depicts a turret gunner on a Georgian armored vehicle shouting while firing grenades at a carload full of Ossetian civilians trying to flee the South Ossetian separatist capital of Tskhinvali. One wonders if some observers in Washington would rather focus on the propagandistic elements in the film than on the apparently real disturbing images.
According to The New York Times, the familiar English-language voice narrating Voyna 08/08/08 and Russia Today's documentaries is that of George Watts, a Canadian-born announcer who emigrated to the Soviet Union in 1952 with his parents and now works as a narrator for the Russian English-language news channel. Mr. Watts Russia Today biography notes that he worked for Radio Moscow's Foreign Broadcasting Service during the Soviet era, including doing voice overs for Leonid Brezhnev. The NYT mentioned Mr. Watts' background in an article about Russian President Dmitri Medvedev's inauguration in March 2008, preferring to focus on the narrator's Red diaper baby family history than on the substance of his current presentations.
Tblisi Versus Moscow PR Wars and the Larger Question of U.S. Foreign Policy
What Exactly Were We Doing in Georgia?
While Voyna 08/08/08 is a work of one-sided propaganda in that it does not show the suffering of Georgian civilians at the hands of the invading Russian forces during the conflict, there are legitimate questions about what U.S. diplomats and advisors on the ground in Georgia knew and when they knew it about President Saakashvili's plans for an offensive into South Ossetia. Even if Saakashvili believed he was responding to grave Russian provocations in ordering his troops into the separatist capital of Tskhinvali, did he seriously believe that Russia would stand aside as its South Ossetian client state was crushed, or that the U.S. would risk a nuclear confrontation with Moscow by becoming directly involved in fighting the Russians on his behalf?
No More Questions for Former Saakashvili Lobbyist?
Obviously, in the wake of a historic presidential election and a global economic meltdown, such questions have largely been forgotten in Washington, along with much discussion of Russia in general. Randy Scheunemann, the aide who had lobbied Members of Congress on behalf of Saakshvili and other NATO applicant clients though his Orion Strategies communications firm before going to work for the McCain campaign, has given no public interviews since November 2008. At that time, Scheunemann denied allegations published in The New York Times that he had leaked false rumors about Alaska Governor and GOP Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin to reporters during the presidential campaign. More important questions -- such as whether Mr. Scheunemann or other members of the Washington establishment have any regrets about strongly advocating NATO membership for Georgia and the unintended consequences of U.S. policy in the former Soviet republic -- remain unanswered.
The Outcome of Battle: Both Russia and Georgia Lost the War
While Russia won a decisive military victory over little Georgia last year, most observers agree that Moscow decisively lost the PR war with the Columbia-educated and English-proficient Saakashvili, who at the height of the conflict was giving dozens of interviews per day to Western media outlets ranging from the BBC to Fox News, pleading with Americans and NATO to rush to Georgia's aid. And in spite of Russian prognostications that he would have to resign in defeat, Mr. Saakashvili's government has survived numerous tests from the Georgian opposition and accusations from fired cabinet officials that he recklessly provoked an unwinnable war with Russia. Even Moscow's most quoted investment analysts have conceded that the Georgia War accelerated the flight of billions in foreign capital out of Russia, hastening the collapse of the Russian stock market and decline of the ruble in the fourth quarter of 2008.
Any Silver Linings for Russia and the West?
Ultimately, even though the Russian military acquired some valuable real estate on the Black Sea in Abkhazia, there were no winners in the 2008 conflict, only losers. Some Russians would argue that Russia had to draw a line in the sand against NATO expansion. From now on, they would argue, the Obama Administration and European Union nations will think twice before expanding NATO's military commitment to include Ukraine and Georgia, particularly since some parts of Ukraine, such as the Crimea peninsula where the Russian Black Sea Fleet resides, have large pro-Russian populations.
However, the main constraint on expanding NATO these days is not Russian resistance, but economics. Ukraine's economy is in even more dire straits than most in Eastern Europe, and NATO may be reluctant to take on new members who would cost considerable sums to modernize and integrate into the Alliance's architecture. NATO also badly needs Russia as an overland logistics route for its mission in Afghanistan. The alternative -- shipping supplies through Iran -- is likely to prove even more costly in terms of concessions by Washington than going through the Russian Federation and the former Soviet Republics of Central Asia. Yet there are probably a few in Washington who would favor cutting a deal with the Islamic Republic mullahs of Teheran over horsetrading with the Kremlin, in a sign that the Cold War legacy of mistrust still runs deep on both sides.
Russian action movie on Georgia war coming soon
Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:41pm EDT
By Conor Sweeney
MOSCOW (Reuters) - A Russian action film inspired by last year's Georgia war and shot in the same style as the Bourne trilogy will be broadcast soon on Russia's top television channel, a spokeswoman for the station said Wednesday.
The trailer for "Olympus Inferno," the latest Russian interpretation of last August's events, shows its two young heroes ducking gunfire, explosions, and a raging Georgian officer firing his pistol.
The film is set to highlight the debate between Moscow and Tbilisi about who started the five-day war over the pro-Russian region of South Ossetia, which broke away from Tbilisi in the early 1990s. Diplomatic ties between the countries remain cut.
The film, which will be shown on March 29, is "something like the Bourne films," said a spokeswoman for Channel One, referring to the Hollywood action movies starring Matt Damon.
The fictional account tells of a U.S.-based entomologist and a female Russian journalist who unintentionally capture evidence that Georgia started the conflict using a special camera night lens as they attempt to film rare night butterflies.
The two face obstacles as they try to get through the frontlines of advancing Georgian forces and back to South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali with proof of who started the war.
Months of skirmishes between separatists and Georgian troops erupted into war in August when Georgia sent troops and tanks to retake the pro-Russian rebel region of South Ossetia, which threw off Tbilisi's rule in 1991-92.
Russia responded with a counter-strike that drove the Georgian army out of South Ossetia.
Moscow's troops pushed further into Georgia, saying they needed to prevent further Georgian attacks. The West condemned Russia for a "disproportionate response" to Georgia's actions.
SHOT IN ABKHAZIA
The entire production was shot over the winter months in Georgia's second breakaway region of Abkhazia, because its temperate climate resembled South Ossetia in summertime.
Director Igor Voloshin said it should be seen simply as an action film about two young people who get caught up in the war.
"Debates begin ... 'bad Russian or bad Georgians', but it's just a film. You should look at it as a film, as a work of art, which is what I made," Voloshin told Reuters.
Click here to read the rest of the story at Reuters.com
Regarding unsubstantiated claims, I recall Newsday's Roy Gutman writing a lengthy piece about supposed Russian mercenaries fighting with Serbs in Kosovo around the time of the NATO bombing campaign against Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro). If I correctly recall, Gutman's sources were anonymous ones who said that they overheard people speaking a non-Serb/Slavic sounding language. Years after that war, this issue hasn't really come up. Some of Gutman's other writings offer questionably one-sided views, which nevertheless saw him receive a a Pulitzer.
Comparatively speaking, as far as some recent wars involving civilians (include the 1999 bombing campaign against Yugoslavia, the two wars of the last decade in Chechnya and the 2003 attack on Iraq) Russia's counterattack against Georgia wasn't as gruesome.
When mentioning these points in reply to some reviews of Russian issues, answers like "two wrongs don't make a right" and "whataboutism" are mentioned. In some relatively influential circles, there continues to be a definite slanting that encourages a not so accurate depiction of what's evident across the board. For accuracy sake, it's therefore appropriate to offer a balancing perspective.
On the matter of mixing history with questionable if not false claims during the Cold War era, note the films depicting live American POWs held in Vietnam years after the "American War." (as the Vietnamese refer to the conflict in question).
There was also the 1970s era joint Western-Communist Yugoslav assisted production of Force 10 From Navarone (filmed in part in Yugoslavia), depicting Allied Yugoslav Partizans and pro-Nazi Chetniks. Never mind that the Chetniks aided around 500 or so Allied airmen shot down over Yugoslavia, as Nazi posters sought the capture of Chetnik leader Draza Mihailovic. This film makes no mention of the Ustasha and SS Hanschar.
At the time in the West, the Communist Yugoslav government was the more preferred of Communist regimes. Likewise with Ceaucescu's Romania, which was the most oppressive of Warsaw Pact governments.
All this is said without meaning to suggest that the West was the less virtuous of Cold War era adversaries. Where I've lived expresses my opinion on that point. I nevertheless advocate reasonably balanced presentations.
'Russia's counterattack against Georgia wasn't as gruesome'????????
The use of irregulars and paramilitaries against civilians? Deliberate ethnic cleansing and destruction of entire Georgian villages with assistance from Russian troops?
I was vehemently against the invasion of Iraq and was appalled by Israel's action in the Lebanon and Gaza, but I have consistently been disgusted by the response of the so-called anti-war movement to what the Russians have done and continue to do in Georgia, somewhere I have many close friends.
Clowns like Michaal Averko who can fathom such unremitting moral outrage at Israel and the US then fall over themselves to justify cheap, unnecessary provocation, war-mongering and brutality by the Russians.
'After all the West are hardly whiter then white, and Russia are only doing it to protect their interests'. You idiots should have mentioned that all this phoney outrage at deaths of civilians in Iraq and Yugoslavia and in the Middle East wasn't about compassion. You were just cheering for one side over the other.
"Clowns" like the anonymous crank replying to me spin in a misrepresentative way. I didn't mention Israel in this thread and haven't singled it out elsewhere. This contrasts from some who (comparatively speaking) criticize others like Russia.
I specified my position on the mentioned conflicts. Russia's just counterattack against the Georgian government wasn't as gruesome as the other mentioned conflicts. As for Israel, it's not the only one who has been faced with tough choices on how to respond against certain actions.
Some recent news regarding Georgia:
Georgian Crackdown Continues with "Antistate" Arrests
http://tinyurl.com/dc4p9n
****
Georgia's Murky Motives
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,615160,00.html
08001
The same Israeli general that engineered the Lebanon war was the one who planned the Georgian offensive/aggression.
"The use of irregulars and paramilitaries against civilians? Deliberate ethnic cleansing and destruction of entire Georgian villages with assistance from Russian troops?"
You’re talking about the Georgians offensive that used GRAD rockets to blitz and ethnically cleanse the entire South Ossetian region Georgian troops entered massacring unarmed civilians with the aid from foreign mercenaries from Ukraine
Irregular troops are armed Ossetians who attack neighbouring villages who added in the assault, ethnic cleansing and massacres of there families villages and people.
Ethnic cleansing of Georgian villages is a lie
You just show your unabashed hatred for Russia supporting Georgia's pre-planned naked unprovoked aggression against Russia and the Ossetian people who are determined to wipe them out whom unlike Russia deliberately target civilian targets. over 600 dead civilians before Russia even entered South Ossetia compared to 175 Georgians which include military personnel and the civilian deaths were contributed to the fact that military installation were bunkered in civilian populated areas.
Your phoney peace activism doesn't fool anyone.
Just like you sponsored the terrorism and ethnic cleansing against the Serbs under false pretext under bogus Serb aggression claims. That independent state the US created carved out from Serbia in Kosovo
Georgian assault is just a replay of Krajina where US assisted and trained Croat and Bosnian forces to assault and ethnically cleanse 250,000 Serbs from Croatia.
http://antiwar.com/malic/?articleid=13294
Georgia itself is a Soros/CIA colony with the President who worked for a Soros affiliated law firm in the US and managing director of Liberty Institute a USAID subcontractor a notorious CIA NGO installed in a Soros engineered “coloured revolutionâ€.
“You were just cheering for one side over the other.â€
Hypocrisy with a capital H which seem to permeate in the western mindset and policy makers.
I don’t think you will be happy until Russia is destroyed and returned to bondage like it was under Yeltsin during the 90’s.
Documentary on war criminal Saakashvili ethnic cleansing and massacre of Ossetia in the August war.
http://www.war080808.com/
Has anyone seen the Russian documentary "Plan Caucus" it is a couple of years old which shows how western intelligence started secretly setting organised crime connections and covert support and training to Chechen militants in 92.
I already new that they were being trained in CIA camps in Bosnia in 92 set up links to Algerian and other terrorist groups.
@Michael Averko
I tried to post another response about the points you made about the Jewish role in Communism not being a primary factor( don’t know how you explain that Jewish leadership was predominant in countries outside Russia as well as the USSR satellite states including the US) but like every other website when you post facts that they can not refute they censor you and this is important because it is the same groups of people that destroyed and controlled the post Cold War government of Russia an conspiring to destroy the very existence of Russia as a state and a people. .
Documentary on war criminal Saakashvili ethnic cleansing and massacre of Ossetia in the August war.
http://www.war080808.com/
Has anyone seen the Russian documentary "Plan Caucus" it is a couple of years old which shows how western intelligence started secretly setting organised crime connections and covert support and training to Chechen militants in 92.
I already new that they were being trained in CIA camps in Bosnia in 92 set up links to Algerian and other terrorist groups.
@Michael Averko
I tried to post another response about the points you made about the Jewish role in Communism not being a primary factor( don’t know how you explain that Jewish leadership was predominant in countries outside Russia including the US as well as the USSR satellite states ) but like every other website when you post facts that they can not refute they censor you and this is important because it is the same groups of people that destroyed and controlled the post Cold War government of Russia an conspiring to destroy the very existence of Russia as a state and a people. .
Hi!
My nationality is tatar, I live in Ufa - it's capital of republic Bashkortostan, we located in the russia, like the Chechen Republic Ichkeriya. Just one thing I want to say - russians were occupants all their history. 99% of population ex-soviet republics hate them, even their "brothers" -ukrainians. Blood things, which they did in the Georgia - it's not exception for them, it's a rule. Don't wonder, guys!
P.S. Ебать вÑÑŽ руÑню в её немытый зад!)))
@Tatar
"They were the first to establish permanent settlements in the Southern Urals. The ethnonym Bashkirs first became known in the 9th century.
In the 10th century, Islam started to spread among Bashkirs, and in the 14th century it became a dominant religion. Up to the 16th century the territory of modern Bashkortostan was divided between Kazan and Siberia Khanates and Nogai Horde.
The tribes that lived there were headed by bi (tribal heads). After Kazan fell to Ivan the Terrible in 1554–1555, representatives of western and north-western Bashkir tribes approached the Tsar with a request to voluntarily join the Muscovy.
Starting from the second half of the 16th century, Bashkiria's territory began taking shape as a part of the Russian state"
These regions were low brow collection of hob nod settlements they only became something when they were incorporated into Russia including your BS Chechen Republic which was never an independent country.
Because Islam and the muslims are so peaceful they never enslaved and behead anyone.
Why don't you and your child killing jihadi friends piss off to the Middle East or Turkey.
Russians better watch out the next jihadi insurrection might be Bashkortostan.
2Tatar: 1) did you know that bashkortostan is bashkirs native place but not tatarians, their place is tatarstan? 2) the ufa city was founded by russions kazak army formations as boundary fort 3) did you know that populations of Bashkortostan are consist about 40% Russians 30% tatars and 20% bashkirians this is multinational republic. 4) most population of the Bashkortostan republic live in peace with each other and just part of stupid separatists like you try to heat the conflict and hate among peoples who live side by side.
I am from ufa too.
tatar you are sick man and name of this sickness is fascism
James & possible others:
These links might be of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Alliance_of_Russian_Solidarists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Galich
first of all everybody must know that south ossetia always was georgian territory, then that russia wanted to occupate georgia. soon we will back in south osetia and putin can't stop us. f--- putin he started war for occupation georgia! ! ! f--- all russians who think that georgia will be joined russian federation! ! ! (putin sheni dedas sheveciiiiiiii da olympus infernos gadamgebis)
James,
Very colourful language. But I’m wondering if you have anything more substantial then references to Russian documentaries? Russian documentaries about war in Caucasus… ha… what could be more biased and irrelevant here? Lot of claims and again very colourful language, but without any reasonably reliable source.
[b]Ethnic cleansing of Georgian villages is a lie[/b]
Why? Because james said so? Should you have ever happened in your life to meet any ossetian and talked to him, you would know that they none of them denies that ethnic cleansing of georgians in SO took place. In fact it’s not something they are ashamed or feel embarrassed of. They view it as normal way to “fight Georgiansâ€. Anyone who has something to do with SO knows very well that all Georgian villages there were destroyed. Few pictures here:
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/photos/2008/georgia0808/
[b]You just show your unabashed hatred for Russia supporting Georgia's pre-planned naked unprovoked aggression against Russia and the Ossetian people who are determined to wipe them out whom unlike Russia deliberately target civilian targets. over 600 dead civilians before Russia even entered South Ossetia[/b]
First, let me enlighten you james, Georgian never entered or attacked Russia. What they did is tried to restore order in northern Georgia. Yes, james, SO is part of Georgia, it's not Russia. Attacking civilians is criminal itself, but it’s funny to see these hypocrites who just few years ago slaughtered tenths of thousands (by most conservative estimates) Chechens “restoring order†in Chechnya, and now weeping about poor osetians.
Also, can you please support the number of 600? Where you get it from? I have completely different numbers, and I can support them, but I wonder if you can support your claim.
As for "unprovoked aggression against Russia" - that's pure lie. Russia installed it's puppet government in SO. Most of SO officials were dispatched from Russia (many of them ex-FSB officials), and all of them are Russian citizens (including president of SO). Known and admitted fact. Russian passports were distributed in a bulk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSAh4mQpjfs&feature=player_embedded - known and admitted fact as well.
This is "unprovoked"? Some dodgy evidences were enough for you to claim that western intelligences supported and trained chechen militants. In this case Russia even didn't hide it's actions on fuelling separatists moods in SO, still you prefer not to see it, and call Georgia's actions "unprovoked". Hypocrisy james, hypocrisy and double standards. I can imagine how would you yell and shout should Americans installed their puppet government in Chechnya and issue Chechens with american passports.
[b]Has anyone seen the Russian documentary "Plan Caucus" [/b]
Well... What knowledge of Caucasus would you expect from someone who doesn't even know how to spell CAUCASUS properly? Especialy if his knowledge is limited to some russian documentaries. I found these references to russian documentaries about Caucasus are annoying. When you don't have any reasonable material to proof something, then at least you can produce some biased documentaries, and later people will refer them as something serious. Facts, james? Facts?
Claims that western intelligence supported and trined chechen militants are laughable and never been supported by anything substantial (except "russian documetaries" of course). However, of course some private organisations and individuals in middle east were involved in that war. That's because there's a huge chechen diaspora in a middle east. Example - 1996 turkish ship Avrasia was hijacked by pro-chechen turkish citizens. What now, turkish government encouraging chechens to hijack it's own ships?
[b]Hypocrisy with a capital H which seem to permeate in the western mindset and policy makers.[/b]
Where exactly? When chechens asked for independance they were slaughtered and virtually whole chechnya was wiped. That was a true genocide. Now the very same politicians who did that, so sypathetic to ossetians. How touching. Please, give me a break. This is what hypocrisy is. I wish I know what do you think about this. james.
"Greg",
James may be an anti-Semitic troll who tries to pin all the blame for the world's problems on the Joooooooos, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Maybe you are a sock puppet for "Jeremy Putney" or one of the other innumerable Kim Zigfeld La Russophobe collective members. If so, I think I would tell you there far more peoples on this Earth to feel sorry for who have a better case for independence than the Chechens, even if Berezovsky is paying you to shill for them. The South Ossetians didn't send suicide bombers to Tblisi or hold schoolkids hostage and murder them in Gori. So your analogy is stupid. Yet some "Russian liberals" compared the South Ossetians to Hezbollah. I guess that justified the Georgians lobbing GRAD rockets into a sleeping city.
Speaking of stupid, so was Saakashvili's decision to "restore constitutional order" in South Ossetia by sending his troops in there. Tell me, was that phrase restore constitutional order focus group tested with some EU lawyers? It sounds like it was, and there is new evidence to suggest that was the case. Do you think Saako ran it by Scheunemann? Or maybe even his best buddy McCain?
Even if you think poor Saako was provoked (the party line once the case for "unprovoked Russian aggression" crumbled) Saako clearly walked right into a Russian trap. Or so said the State Department types trying to cover their asses after their client got embarassed. And you don't seem to have anything to say about what all those U.S. Marines were there to do, much less the contractors, CIA agents, and Randy Scheunemann Beltway bandits, and Vladimir Socor propagandists.
What they were doing (the latter group, not the Marines) was creating an anti-Russian client state on Russia's doorstep. Why you think any state would tolerate that is beyond me. [Sure, the Soviets had Cuba for decades, but they always understood the limits and used the Cubans as proxies rather than placing serious hardware on the island after the Missile Crisis.]
What pisses me off is that Randy Scheunemann, John McCain, George Soros, and all those other clowns will never be held accountable for feeding Saako's delusions of grandeur, that he could refight the Evil Empire and win. And in doing so, they got hundreds of Georgians and South Ossetians killed. Great work guys.
You and the other Zigfeld tools don't have a factual leg to stand on, and you know it. Soon your Berezovsky/Khodorkovsky money will run out, and you'll have to find something more productive to do with yourselves than maintain Washington and London's aging anti-Russia lobby.
The only thing you can thank your lucky stars for is that the U.S. media is too docile, bored and distracted with other bigger fish to fry than to dig too deep into why U.S. Marine trained Georgian soldiers got caught on tape killing civilians, or what the hell we were doing in Georgia in the first place. Which makes you wonder if Putin had a point when he said that the Western media responded, as if they were under control, and the "media freedom" you talk about so much as existing in the West but not in Russia is not a delusion.
Lol… Steve J. Nelson… “factual�?? You want to talk about something “factual� Well… lets do so then. Yet, the trouble is I failed to find any single fact in your whole post. Your language is very colourful as well, even probably more colourful then james’ one. But the lack of facts or evidences is killing. Except probably the fact that American contractors helped training Georgians. Steve J. Nelson, fyi, Georgia is sovereign country. They invite contractors from whatever country they wish. You will be probably the last person they would ask permission from before inviting someone to their country. And I don’t see why americans shouldn’t send they contractors to Georgia. In case you are not aware, Georgia is strongest US ally. They sent troops to Iraq to support US. Do you wonder why americans were eager to train Georgian soldiers? Also, Georgia is very keen to join Nato, but there are certain military standards to join it, for that reason americans agreed to help to train Georgians.
And again you people seems pissed that us marines train Georgian soldiers, but prefer to keep silence about Russian agents actions in pre-war SO.
“I think I would tell you there far more peoples on this Earth to feel sorry for who have a better case for independence than the Chechens, even if Berezovsky is paying you to shill for them. The South Ossetians didn't send suicide bombers to Tblisi or hold schoolkids hostage and murder them in Gori.â€
This is what happens when poor people get information from Russian state media only, and get under impression they are very knowledgeable about events in CAUCUS (c). Well, now it’s time to enlighten you Steve J. Nelson. But I want you to do your homework first. 1) Please find the year when the Chechen war started. 2) Please find the year when first Chechen suicide bombers were sent to Russia. 3) Apparently you referred to Beslan siege. So, please, find what year it took place.
When done please come back and we will continue the lesson.
[b]Tell me, was that phrase restore constitutional order focus group tested with some EU lawyers? It sounds like it was, and there is new evidence to suggest that was the case. Do you think Saako ran it by Scheunemann? Or maybe even his best buddy McCain?[/b]
Steve J. Nelson, your thoughts are too sporadic. I didn’t get your question. Do you imply that some EU officials were involved in SO attack. Who is Scheunemann? Is he some EU or US official? Anyway, if you have anything to say can you then support your claims please? Phrases like “it sounds†when supplementing facts sound silly and definitely don’t count as facts.
[b]Even if you think poor Saako was provoked[/b]
I presented cleat facts about how puppet government in SO was established. You didn’t deny any single of them, yet still say “Even if you think poor Saako was provokedâ€.
[b] Saako clearly walked right into a Russian trap[/b]
Now you agree it was a trap? Good. At least something good from this conversation.
[b] Or so said the State Department types trying to cover their asses after their client got embarassed. And you don't seem to have anything to say about what all those U.S. Marines were there to do, much less the contractors, CIA agents, and Randy Scheunemann Beltway bandits, and Vladimir Socor propagandists.
What they were doing (the latter group, not the Marines) was creating an anti-Russian client state on Russia's doorstep. Why you think any state would tolerate that is beyond me.[/b]
What annoys me the most about some American posters is that they believe everything in this world happening was programmed by their government. If something happened in Asia – that US government, Africa – that CIA, etc. Christ! Wake up! I’m not sure about Asia, Africa, etc but the conflicts in Caucasus existed long time ago before US was admitted anywhere as a significant state. First conflict between Georgians and osetians started almost 100 years ago. Was Saakashvili there? Were americans there?
Gamsahurdia, Shevarnadze, Saakashvili – whoever lead Georgia, they all assumed SO is part of Georgia and fought for that, long time before americans even learned anything about Georgia. Georgia was part of SU for 70 years. That was more then enough time for them to decide whether they want to live with Russia or not. It’s a sovereign country and they establish ties with whatever country they wish. And Georgians don’t give a crap if james or Steve J. Nelson or Putin like that or not. Russia created anti-Georgian state on Georgia’s doorstep. And it’s beyond me why you think any state would tolerate that!!!
[b]You and the other Zigfeld tools don't have a factual leg to stand on, and you know it. Soon your Berezovsky/Khodorkovsky money will run out, and you'll have to find something more productive to do with yourselves than maintain Washington and London's aging anti-Russia lobby[/b]
Steve J. Nelson, I ignored most of your insults. They are not annoying, but rather amusing. What annoying is that you are not able to support any of your claims. Lot of pathetic stuff but nothing in essence. For that reason I asked you specific questions. Please update your knowledge of events in a region and come back. We will continue then. If you think I don’t have “a factual leg to stand on†then feel free to refute any of facts presented by me. Screaming about how bad Schunemann (or whoever it was) does not count.
Greg,
"Gamsahurdia, Shevarnadze, Saakashvili – whoever lead Georgia, they all assumed SO is part of Georgia and fought for that, long time before americans even learned anything about Georgia." Does that list include Josef Stalin, who drew the borders of South Ossetia back when it was the USSR? Is that why they have a statue of old Uncle Joe in Gori?
"What annoys me the most about some American posters is that they believe everything in this world happening was programmed by their government." No not really, but thanks for the patronizing tone. I know for a fact that Congressman Dana Rohrbacher (R-CA) saw intelligence reports to his House Select Committee before the war, showing the Georgian preparations for attacking South Ossetia months in advance. Believe it or not Greg, some people in this world actually are privy to things that you don't know. I didn't say CIA told Saako to attack South Ossetia, I said they were well aware of it well in advance. And the fact that they didn't try to stop Saako should tell you something about how highly Washington values Georgia as an ally.
Either the CIA believed Saako's own propaganda that he could march in to South Ossetia and no one would stop him (which I doubt), or someone figured it would be good anti-Russian PR if the Georgians got the crap beaten out of them. Which is exactly what happened. I'm not going to argue with you that somehow South Ossetia is a paragon of democracy or liberty, or that it is not a Russian client state. My argument with you is that people like you tried to drag America into a proxy war with Russia where we had no vital interest at stake whatsoever. And honestly, why are you defending Saakashvili fighting a war that Georgia had no hope of winning, short of direct U.S. intervention that was not going to happen?
Steve J. Nelson
[b]"Gamsahurdia, Shevarnadze, Saakashvili – whoever lead Georgia, they all assumed SO is part of Georgia and fought for that, long time before americans even learned anything about Georgia." Does that list include Josef Stalin, who drew the borders of South Ossetia back when it was the USSR? Is that why they have a statue of old Uncle Joe in Gori?[/b]
No, mate. They have a statue of Stalin in Gori because Stalin was born in Gori :) Didn’t you know that? Also, I said "whoever lead Georgia" - and Stalin never lead Georgia and never fought for SO :) You reference to Stalin is irrelevant here but I can see why you mentioned him. You are implying that it was Stalin who joined SO to Georgia. You probably believe that before that SO was an independent country or something. Of course wrong. SO was part of Georgia long before Stalin become chairman of communist party (essentially head of state). During revolution and civil war in Russia there was an independent movement in SO with little success, but later it was brutally crushed by georgian nationalists. That's another question whether SO deserved to be an independent state or not, but the point is it wasn't.
Actually, I enjoy helping you to learn more about history of Georgia and Caucasus. Also, you will be surprised but Lenin called Stalin "russian chauvinist".
[b]I know for a fact that Congressman Dana Rohrbacher (R-CA) saw intelligence reports to his House Select Committee before the war, showing the Georgian preparations for attacking South Ossetia months in advance. Believe it or not Greg, some people in this world actually are privy to things that you don't know. I didn't say CIA told Saako to attack South Ossetia, I said they were well aware of it well in advance. And the fact that they didn't try to stop Saako should tell you something about how highly Washington values Georgia as an ally. [/b]
Steve J. Nelson, I don't believe you are so naive. "Some people in this world actually are privy to things that I don't know"??? :-D Every 5 years old kid in South and North Caucasus knew that there's about to be a war. I can't provide you proof of this of course but I can refer you to public announcements made months before the war begun - http://www.regnum.ru/news/1027011.html
In case you don't understand Russian it's an article called "Georgia is preparing for war" about the urgent briefing called by president of Abkhazia where he provided details on how Georgia will attack Abkhazia. The briefing was held on 5-June-2008. If you wish I can supply dozens of links like this. And you will be telling me that somebody in US knew Georgia was preparing for war??? LOL!!! I'm not sure about your secret agents and that congressmen but Moscow definitely knew about the war. In fact, you yourself in your last post admitted it was a trap. I'm pretty sure your secret agents were watching moods in Moscow and learned from them about the forthcoming war.
[b]Either the CIA believed Saako's own propaganda that he could march in to South Ossetia and no one would stop him (which I doubt), or someone figured it would be good anti-Russian PR if the Georgians got the crap beaten out of them. Which is exactly what happened. [/b]
Well.. wrong again. 100% people in Russia (that number doesn’t include national republics) see it as a clear victory, not only militarily but also politically.
[b]My argument with you is that people like you tried to drag America into a proxy war with Russia where we had no vital interest at stake whatsoever[/b]
I'm getting annoyed by your repeating silly accusations. Just because you explain your views I don't call you KGB agent or Gazprom sponsored. I understand that you are a just a poor guy who need help and who is eager to understand what happened. And I'm happily helping you. You in turn can believe I'm wrong or disillusioned but your silly accusations are indeed silly.
P.S. I noticed you carefully avoided continuing conversation about Chechnya. Can you elaborate please, based on my questions from previous post?
Also, Steve J. Nelson, another interesting fact about Stalin - ethnically he was kudarets. I leave it for you to find out who kudarets are, but believe me you'd be extremely surprised.
@Greg
HRW is a George Soros funded rights group the same Soros that installed the regime in Georgia who claimed that only 49 people were killed in South Ossetia who were wrapped by IRC for their fraudulent report.
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13304
And it was US and Britain that vetoed a Russian emergency cease fire resolution before they sent tanks into South Ossetia.
And they did pre- plan it this is the facts.
"First, the last joint US-Georgian exercise was held literally on the eve of the aggression. Secondly, Ukrainian air-defense squads were deployed in Georgia. Thirdly, the OSCE representatives in South Ossetia clearly knew about the coming attack as they left their positions several hours before it was launched and, consequently, the same information had to be available to the US. C. Rice visited Tbilisi shortly before the Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. These are the facts."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10055
There’s also the fact that Georgia was recruiting Georgians in the Russian army and MPRI forces were training Georgian forces in sabotage techniques.
Georgia is a client state of the US and it was the Georgian leadership after the fall of the USSR who abolished their autonomous status within Georgia and sent in troops to the two regions under the slogan Georgia for the Georgians
Greg, the Chechen leadership who you admire started training militants in Bosnia in 1992, two years prior to the Chechen war.
The Wall Street Journal reported in 2001 that:
"for the past 10 years, the most senior leaders of al Qaeda have visited the Balkans, including bin Laden himself on three occasions between 1994 and 1996. The Egyptian surgeon turned terrorist leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri has operated terrorist training camps, weapons of mass destruction factories and money-laundering and drug-trading networks throughout Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey and Bosnia. This has gone on for a decade. Many recruits to the Balkan wars came originally from Chechnya, a jihad in which Al Qaeda has also played a part."
making connections to international terrorist groups like the Algerians massacring Serb civilians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=052WjpCYYTU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fde%2Dconstruct%2Enet%2Fe%2Dzine%2F%3Fpage%5Fid%3D42&feature=player_embedded
Russian sent troops into Chechnya which was a response to restoring order as he created a regional dictatorship were terrorists and organised crime freely operated fully subsidised by the Russian state which resulted in a civil war with rival clan leaders.
Over this 3 year period Chechen militias were kidnap Russian children for ransom, holding them as slaves, rape and ethnic cleansing of the Russian population there.
And these death tolls and atrocity stories are plagiarism of what was claimed against the Serbs have now been debunked like the impossible hyper inflated death toll.
They didn’t use any air bombardments on the capital that was destroyed due to ground fighting which 90% of the fighting in the first war was concentrated in the capital which was 50% ethnic Russian which they we supported by various states especially Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan.
So the first war was actually a trap.
There wasn’t a war between 1997 and 2000 and during that time when they had total control they immediately started running training camps in the neighbouring region of Dagestan , travelling to the Middle East to secure funds to set up camps in Afghanistan under the Taliban regime who they fought along side against the Northern Alliance to capture Afghanistan and in Russia conducted a campaign of cross border incursions, terrorist attacks, kidnappings, sex trafficking and slavery, drug smuggling, every crime you can think of.
Read ex CIA counter terrorism agent in Russia Paul Murphy’s book Wolves of Islam.
@Steve J. Nelson
If the oligarchs, or the people who control the media, senior politicians who enact foreign policy, or people like Soros, Neocon or Communists were not Jewish then I would not be an "anti-semitic troll".
Read Prof Kevin MacDonalds work. http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/archives/MacDonald-Archives.html
Also a good resource.
http://www.jewwatch.com/index.htm
@Greg
Stalin like his other right hand man Beria was a Georgian and indentified themselves as much.
It was under the Communist regime that Abhkazia and South Ossetia was incorporated into Georgia.
James,
[b]HRW is a George Soros funded rights group the same Soros that installed the regime in Georgia who claimed that only 49 people were killed in South Ossetia who were wrapped by IRC for their fraudulent report.[/b]
And the point is?
I have no idea what HRW is. And I have no clue why you mentioned them here. There are thousands of organisations in this world. Would you list them all here? If it's a Soros' funded right group then be so. If they claimed something then since this is free world they have the right to claim something. And your right is to refute their claim if you can. Of course it is lie that only 49 people were killed.
In any case this lie is less blatant than what Russia claimed in first days of the war, and even what you claimed couple of posts above. I again appeal you to reveal sources of "over 600 dead civilians before Russia even entered South Ossetia ".
Also I can't understand why you get here the link to that piece of biased shit. I can get you hundreds of interesting articles "proving" completely the opposite, but since any article could be described as biased (and most of the time they are) I make it clear, facts are preferable. Both articles referred by you are indeed utter pieces of shit.
First one starts with blatant lie right away:
[b] Amid all the geopolitical analyses and ideological posturing on the occasion of the Three-Day War between Russia and Georgia, we are losing sight of the very real human costs of this conflict: thousands of civilians killed and grievously wounded, a city, Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, in ruins[/b]
We talked already about "thousands of civilians killed". As for the ruins, poor Mr Raimondo has been fooled by ORT again. I remember very well news reports about "ruins" and "Tshinvall completely destroyed" in first days of the war. Later they quietly corrected themselves though:
http://www.gazeta.ru/news/lenta/2008/08/17/n_1258504.shtml
[b]And it was US and Britain that vetoed a Russian emergency cease fire resolution before they sent tanks into South Ossetia.
And they did pre- plan it this is the facts.
"First, the last joint US-Georgian exercise was held literally on the eve of the aggression. Secondly, Ukrainian air-defense squads were deployed in Georgia. Thirdly, the OSCE representatives in South Ossetia clearly knew about the coming attack as they left their positions several hours before it was launched and, consequently, the same information had to be available to the US. C. Rice visited Tbilisi shortly before the Georgian aggression against South Ossetia. These are the facts."[/b]
james, I hope you read at least some of my posts. Then go back and read them properly. I think I said already who knew what before the war. I know that your government blocked ceasefire resolution. What makes you to believe I claimed otherwise?
[b]Georgia is a client state of the US[/b]
And SO is puppet of Russia. The difference between those is that Georgia is a sovereign independent country, SO is a region inside Georgia. Almost everyone from SO government were appointed by Russia. Most of them from FSB. I mentioned already how russian passports were issued to people in SO. Do you know what is required get russian citizenship? I know people who live in Russia for several years without hope to obtain russian passport, however in SO people who never were in Russia were issued passports.
If Georgia wants to be "a client state" (as you call it) they more then free to do so. And you are more then free to be very unhappy about the fact.
[b]Greg, the Chechen leadership who you admire started training militants in Bosnia in 1992, two years prior to the Chechen war.[/b]
Lol... I wonder where you get this from james? I said that Russia slaughtered thousands of civilians in Chechnya. You don't like to talk about this so you quietly trying to turn this to more comfortable area of how bad Chechen leaders are. Can you please point out exactly where I expressed my admiration of someone's leadership? There were good Chechen leaders as well as bad ones. This is the case with any nation or country.
The part of your post about jihad, terrorism and blah blah blah could safely be dismissed. I know this trick is very popular in US – when you want to accuse somebody in a crime just associate him/her with “terrible†words like “jihadâ€, “al qaedaâ€, “terroristâ€, etc. Don’t need much evidence. Simply shouting loudly would do. The fact is, all you have james is a sentence from Wall Street Journal where words “Chechens†and “jihad†been mentioned. I bet you do believe that proves for sure Chechens are bad and they were involved in a horrible crimes prior first war, thus Russia killing thousands of civilians (leave alone hundreds of thousands wounded and displaced) was justified. President of Chechnya before the war was D.Dudaev – Soviet general and hero of Estonia. Feel free to find any links between his government and al qaeda or any other Islamic militant groups. Without any doubts there were isolated cases of Chechens being involved in military conflicts prior first war. This could be applied to any nation. American citizens fought alongside Taleban militants. Does it mean American society involved in a jihad? Maybe we need to send troops to US to “restore constitutional order†then.
After Russian troops ravaged Chechnya, wahabism indeed becomes very popular in Chechnya. That’s natural and was easy to predict. Even distant links with al qaeda were established – all thanks to Russian actions in Chechnya. We see similar situation in Iraq now. Prior American invasion it was mostly secular state (still without doubts some Iraqis were involved in so called “jihad†around the world). After war started al qaeda becomes extremely popular there. Almost on a weekly basis we receive news about another terrorist act in Iraq. So according to your logic americans actions there were justified, as they fighting international terrorism and al qaeda.
If you accept this, then I would agree that you believe Russians were fighting al qaeda in Chechnya in first war. Also, everything you say about pre-war Chechnya - regional dictatorship, ethnic cleansing, kidnapping, etc - could safely be applied to pre-war SO.
From your whole post I could find only one fact – non Chechens were mistreated in pre war Chechnya, and I accept it. But as a diligent pro-russian nationalist you mention Russians only, whereas in fact people of all nations fled Chechnya (as well as Georgians fled SO).
Anyway, here my facts:
1. In 1995 the Constitutional court of RF reviewed Eltsin’s decision to start war in Chechnya and concluded that his decision doesn’t contradict constitution of RF. Here you can see full text of the resolution:
http://www.az-design.ru/Projects/AZLibrCD/Law/Constn/CCrt9296/3r010.shtml
According to which president of Russia is responsible for the integrity of Russia’s territory. He has the right to use army to defend territorial integrity of Russia. “Constitution of RF does not allow unilateral decision on region’s status change.†“Territorial integrity – one of the basics of the constitutionalism of Russia.â€
It’s beyond me why these rules do not apply to SO conflict. Probably because different standards apply to different countries.
2. You claimed that Chechen militants were involved in military conflicts around the world, and implied this is was a general trend among Chechens. All you could provide was a quote from Wall Street Journal mentioning Chechens. The fact is prior 1994 the only conflict where Chechens were extensively involved was war in Abkhazia. Government of Chechnya (as well as federal Russian government) then indeed encouraged Chechens to travel to Abkhazia and fight Georgia. Guess who was chechen volunteers leader in Abkhazia? It was Shamil Basaev. Yes, terrorist Basaev. But back then for Russia he wasn't a terrorist. He was hero of Abkhazia! According to you this was “jihad†and Georgians fought “muslim terroristsâ€. Strange you neglected to mention this fact.
[b] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=052WjpCYYTU&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fde%2Dconstruct%2Enet%2Fe%2Dzine%2F%3Fpage%5Fid%3D42&feature=player_embedded [/b]
To be honest I watched patiently whole video hoping it finally will reveal chechens involvement in "jihad" - chechens never were mentioned in a video (unless I missed it due to bad quality). It's just typical racist anti-muslim propaganda. First part of video is completely devoted to show how bad muslims are. Gruesome pictures, heads rolling, and somebody singing 'Alahh aqbar" on background. Very popular these days, very impressive and very effective, I assume, especially on american public. Second part shows interrogation of POW. I failed to see what this has to do with war in Chechnya or SO.
[b]They didn’t use any air bombardments on the capital that was destroyed due to ground fighting which 90% of the fighting in the first war was concentrated in the capital which was 50% ethnic Russian which[/b]
james, given that you live thousands kms away, I'd imagine you have very little interest to this conflict, thus lack basic facts. I don't want to argue about specific details about this war. Just read more documents (not russian documentaries), speak to people. I only want to comment on "50% Russians". To be honest, this is completely new perspective for me. I never viewed this conflict from this angle. What you implying is that this was a war between russians and chechens, and since 50% of population in capital were russians, Moscow has moral right to bomb it because it was bombing russians. I can't even call this cynical, because this is beyond my understanding. I hope I misunderstood you. Can you please clarify what you meant?
[b] they we supported by various states especially Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan.[/b]
Independence movement in Iraq is supported by various states as well, ranging from Pakistan to S.Arabaia. Thus we conclude US fighting international terrorism there and invasion was justified. Good luck!
James,
Greg by all accounts appears to be a sock puppet for "Jeremy Putney", an Englishman very interested in the Chechen cause for some reason. Putney appears to be a real human being and not another sock puppet handle in the Kim Zigfeld/La Russophobe hydra. You're probably wasting your time with him. Same condescension and sneering attitude towards Americans AND Russians as many Oxbridge wannabe types.
When you pressed him to explain whether or not he thought Saakashvili's attack on South Ossetia was justified, since he already conceded that many governments knew it was coming, he just slipped away, or changed the subject to the Chechens. But I'm not trying to justify the first Chechen War, even if the Second Chechen War was absolutely necessary.
I just think it's ridiculous to compare it to South Ossetia since no other sovereign state tried tried to claim Chechnya for itself, though there were plenty of proxies involved who may or may not have had direct government support (Saudis, Iranians, etc). Certainly no superpower backed the Chechens, though the Jamestown Foundation and some in Washington D.C. clearly wanted the U.S. to support any tribe within the Russian Federation that wants to secede from Moscow (look at ex-CIA, ex-State Dept. man Paul Goble's propaganda), as if breaking up the RF would be the same as the USSR.
If you would cut out the anti-Semitic drivel blaming Jews for all of Russia and the world's problems some of what you might actually make sense.
Steve J. Nelson,
I see only one person here who slipping away from direct questions. I asked you several specific questions, all of which you avoided to answer. All is left for you now is throwing stupid insults and then withdraw quietly. Apart from that all you could say is that I slipped away when somebody asked me whether attack on SO was justified. Now, another question, would you mind showing where exactly he pressed or asked me that question? This is another lie of you. If not, then just copy and paste please.
Secondly, I think I said already it was a crime to attack civilians. And if you or whoever ask me whether it was justified or not then in clear English – the answer is NOT!!! Georgians have right to protect their sovereignty and territorial integrity but there are other means. Other questions? So can you please point out exactly in which parts of my posts above I said something otherwise? Of course it’s naïve of me to hope you’d be able to support your words. Most likely you’d disappear or return only to throw more silly insults and some funny names.
The reason why I mentioned Chechnya is because even though Georgia was an aggressor in this case, it’s not Russia who could point it’s finger on Saakashvili, since they did exactly the same few years ago. Your response was that Chechens arranged terrorist acts in Moscow and Beslan. Then you were told that those acts actually happened long after war in Chechnya started. Now, after realising that, you saying that the main difference between Chechnya and SO is that “I just think it's ridiculous to compare it to South Ossetia since no other sovereign state tried tried to claim Chechnya for itself†– not sure how this justifies war in Chechnya though. That’s the whole point that Russia indeed claimed SO, since it was interested in splitting Georgia and grabbing some parts of it.
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That is stupid. They went into the war for nothing. Some one was on drugs or something
War is a very hard thing to easily explain. Most Western opinion points to Russia as the aggressor, while Russians pointed to Georgia. The fact is both were at fault. The question is, who is more at fault then the other? The answer is neither. Because there is a third party here, one that james has already brought up; The United States. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, the US has constantly been pushing, both overtly and covertly, a plan of encirclement against Russia, China, and any other emerging power in the world. The neo-conservative dream of "Pax-Americana" was the goal, the idea of a completely American dominated world. Though thnis dream is all over. Pax-Americana is dead, only the most irrational idealouge would argue otherwise. NATO expansion is over, the ABM sheild is still being reveiwed, and after last year's war in South Ossetia, the West has come to realize that the days of a weak and defenseless Russia are done. If the US wants Pax-Americana, they will have to spill blood and treasure for it. This is something the West will never risk, so strategic encirclement has ended. However this doesn't mean the US dos not have imperial ambitions. President Obama may be more pragmatic when it comes to Russia, but he is far from a fundamental change in strategy. He still believes in containing Russia, however the tide is turning against America's Empire. As the old order declines, so a new one will begin. This is only inevitable, for history always repeats itself. "American exceptionalism" is a worthless phrase, there is no such thing. History has no exceptions, democracy or not. Athens was democratic, yet they fell. Rome was a Republic, yet it fell. The British Empire had voting, yet it dissolved. Being a multi-cultured state with democratic tendencies does not exclude you from the fabric of history. The British used to say, "The sun never sets on the British Empire". Look how that one turned out.