What is the point of this post? If you are pointing out that Georgia invaded Ossetia before Russia invaded Georgia, way to go. Maybe some media stories are not emphasizing it enough for your tastes, but everyone knows it and no one except the real rabid Russia-haters like Zeyno Baran is deying it. However Russia is now bombing Georgian facilities and civilians far outside the conflict area; they are refusing to allow Georgian troops to withdraw from South Ossetia; and actually invading Georgia proper from two different locations, with the intention of overthrowing the government! Why are you nitpicking in Russia's defense? The situation has moved on and you have completely missed the point.

to Bakinets : uh the MSM are certainly not emphasizing the chain of events. Instead they're emphasizing a lot the georgian propaganda and the only videotaped case of "collateral damage" in GORI. There is no proof that Russia wants to invade Georgia, they showed more restraint and concentrated their efforts on military targets for the moment. We read everywhere misleading titles: in US security council meeting russian ambassador denied any "regime change" projects and said that was american ideas but we read everywhere that "RUSSIA is bombing Tbilissi" when in fact a bomb hit something not far from the airport. Everything is exagerated on the georgian side, we have to wait to see any confirmations..

I believe Russia is justified for its intervention in South Ossetia. Georgia directly defied a UN mandated cease-fire agreement and attacked peacekeepers and Russian citizens. That is unacceptable. Georgia must be driven from the provinces. To say that Russia will not tolerate aggression on its border or on its people. Particularly one that is an ally of the West. Russia is not weak and in bad shape as it was in the 1990s and is ready to defend its security interests. This busts the western conception that Russia is far too weak to react to any aggression. They are wrong. Saakashvili must be made an example of. Though not through regime change. Defeat him in Akhazia and South Ossetia, and he will be defeated in his political career and his Western partners.

Lol! Bakinets post is littered with errors.

1: Russia is bombing Georgian military targets whether these be part of the logistical supply chain (the port of Poti or the military airports), troop concentrations. In Gori, where Russia is accused of bombing civilians, there is in fact a rather large weapons dump cunningly built closed to civilian houses.

In fact, it would be remiss of the Russian military to allow georgian reinforcements and materiel which could be used to kill more civilians, as the georgians did with the BM21s over night.

I could of course point out to you that during the 'war' in Kosovo, NATO bombed the whole of Serbia, not just Kosovo. I wonder why? I also wonder why they did not put troops on ground to stop the obvious genocide that was going on. /sarcasm

2: Not allowing the georgians to withdraw??? Why should they unless there is an cease-fire agreed by both sides or the georgian soldiers surrender? Or is it normal to allow the opposing force to leave and come back a bit later with his friends to blow you up?

3: Invading georgia from two locations? Nope. The Russians are mandated under a 1992 UN cease-fire agreement to hold the peace. The soldiers were sent in after the georgian military deliberately targeted russian peacekeepers barracks and killed ten of them. Would the US just sit back and do nothing if their peacekeepers were deliberately targeted and killed? Should Russia be concerned that an over night artillery attack by the georgians is send thousands of refugees into their country?

The other front is not russian but the abkhaz, the other lot who don't like the Georgians.

4: Overthrowing the government? I don't know where you got this from. Russia has clearly stated that it has no intention of annexing parts of Georgia, only that the Georgians withdraw back to the 1992 cease-fire lines. It is not Russia questioning the territorial integrity of Georgia. The West knows a thing or two about territorial integrity though (Serbia/Kosovo)

Further to this point, the Abkahz have clearly stated that their goal is to reclaim the Khodori gorge which was attacked and taken by Georgia forces (and in the process violating the 1992 UN cease-fire agreement) a year or so back.

The Russian have not sent land forces into areas outside the 1992 cease-fire zone.

Clearly you are reading the wrong news sources.

As for the Russian reaction, this is the first time Russia has pushed back at NATO after almost 20 years of creeping encroachment. The strategic game has now become far more serious.

You're seriously taking the 1,400 casualty quote as accurate? That was ONE PERSON'S assessment of the damage on Friday, it would have been IMPOSSIBLE to confirm. NONE of that has been confirmed, yet you trumpet it like a fact.

You also forget to mention that S. Ossetia had been evacuating civilians for the past week, claiming it wasn't an evacuation but preparations for "letni
lager."

After Saak's announced ceasefire elements in S. Ossetia began shelling Georgian villages south of the capital. The military responded. You seem to want to neglect that info as well. You're cherry-picking your sources, pretty shameful for a PhD.

Huge corruption and smuggling is the preferred trade of South Ossetia, as well as a significant % of Russian internal structure... And this is the dog with which Russia must lie down next to; and the dog that will eventually bite.

I believe that an article, discussing the chain of events, is very important, because indeed there is a lot of anti-Russia propaganda in the press.
To bakinets:
You would be surprised at the number of "real rabid Russia-haters" - I happen to be reading Latvian online press, and 80% of the commentators on one of the Latvian portals (www.delfi.lv) call Russians by derogatory names (such as "stupid pigs"). A large proportion of them is also calling "to bomb Moscow" in response to "Russia's attack on Georgia".

Where in LGF quote you see the claim that Russia Blog writes about ID or is associated with ID? All what was said is that the Discovery Institute runs Russia Blog and the same institute advocates ID. That's it. Which is true if wikipedia article on Discovery Institute is accurate.

LGF is not committing, as you say, fallacy of association. Instead it is you who is messing the argument with goal-shifting

That's America!! The media is another weapon of mass destruction but it works so cunningly.

I agree with Julian's earlier assessment of the Georgian-Russian situation, and as an American, I'd like to add an addendum to it:

Georgia directly borders Russia. Were Russian troops aiding and abetting Mexican forces near Mexico's border with the U.S., Americans would rightly be outraged. I twice voted for U.S. President George Bush, though I belly-laughed when I recently heard him pronounce the Russian military response in Georgia "...unwarranted" and "...overly ironhanded" [quotes not verbatim].

With "Russia expert" Condoleeza Rice in charge of our foreign affairs--and given my immense respect for this woman's considerable resume and daunting intellect--it pains me to acknowledge that America still understands so little of the Russian mindset, and we've seemingly so little fraternal concern for Russia's rightful desire for national security in the wake of what can only be described as unarguable NATO encroachment in Russia's immediate sphere of interests.

With American troops presently posted in no less than 22 nations worldwide, it seems rather ludicrous that we condemn Russia for sending but a small portion of her own military forces to safeguard her border with Georgia.

Indeed I twice voted for George Bush--the architect of the latest 'wars' in Iraq and Afghanistan--and yet it embarrasses and confounds me that the U.S. at this stage in world history would dare castigate Russia for seeking to defend her borders. Apparently American leaders do indeed think their political constituents too uninformed to know the difference between unfounded, ill-explained American aggression in Iraq, and Moscow's right to deliver the "mailed fist" when warranted.

We Americans were mighty quick to praise Solzhenitsyn when he remonstrated against Soviet power in 1974, and yet we were peculiarly, uncomfortably silent when he similarly railed in rightful opposition to American and Western aggression and geopolitical misdeed.

I'm afraid that this is yet another of those times when Moscow has Washington by the proverbial balls, politically and philosophically--and American leaders have only themselves to blame for our needless embarrassment.

Re; ZM
You asked, "Where in LGF quote you see the claim that Russia Blog writes about ID or is associated with ID?"
Here is what is posted at LGF:
Disco Institute Supports Russian Assault

Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 12:23:53 pm PDT

In addition to promoting the anti-science hoax of “intelligent design,” the Discovery Institute runs a pro-Russian site called “Russia Blog,” and today they come out in favor of Russia’s brutal assault on the breakaway republic of South Ossetia: Russia Blog: War in Georgia: Yawns and Kneejerks in America.

I think it's pretty clear. The answer to your posted question is plainly stated in the first sentence. Stop drinking the green kool-aid.

Well, you had credibility with me until your last paragraph...

"The truth is that the U.S. mainstream media is no better at covering Russia than it is at covering the war in Iraq, Israel-Palestine, President George W. Bush, or faked Texas Air National Guard memos. The same lazy imitation of existing memes operates here too,"

Oh Please....

"But, obviously, the Georgian invasion had been long prepared – and was probably underway while he was making the first speech."

First of all - what is your basis for making this assertion? You present no evidence to support it and ignore the possibility that the flights were deployed quickly in response to the Russian aggression against Georgian troops.

You can't just say "obviously" because you happen to think so. You need to provide some evidence as to why we too must think this is obvious.

How about a real chronology that details militia of the breakaway provinces attacking out side the disputed territories. Or attacks like that on Chkhalta in March 2007 which beggars belief that it wasn't done by helicopters flown by Russian pilots.

Why is Russia now attacking Georgia out of Abhaksia?

They mean to capture and reintegrate Georgia back into Russia. Russia has gone far beyond any mandate they might, or might not, have had.

Lol.

Why don't you read the top right-hand corner of your page which describes "Yuri Manchur".

I think LGF has a valid point here.

"They mean to capture and reintegrate Georgia back into Russia."
where did you take this information from? From the delirious thoughts of a Neo USSR ?

I came here to get another side of the chronology on this issue and was disappointed. "Who started it this time? Who Knows?" Once the conflict starts it always seems that we get into the weeds of who said what with which attitude, when the larger actions are ignored. Is there any truth to the assertion that Russia has incited populations in northeast and northwest Georgia to make separatist demands and go paramilitary? Is this perhaps a case of long term civilizational boundary stress? Does Russia in fact have a case for re-assimilating these people? I would like to know more.

Thank you for reminding us sequence of events it is crucial.

1. midnight: Georgia attacked South Osetia, bombing city of Tsinvali and killing ~1400 civilians first night. By the way, all of these civilians was Russian citizens

2. early morning: Georgial attacked Russina peace keepers, killing 10 of them

3. 8:00 local time. Russia call for emergence U.N. Security Concul meeting. Unfortunately U.N. falied to respond or even condemn georgian attack

4. 12:00 local lime: Russian forces came to help peace keepers and civilians.

It is interesting, wester mass media did not see the conflict for first 12 hours. No report, no information, nothing. But only when Russia get involved, they started to report something and only georgian point of view.

as been said about georgian leader Saak: "he is son of beach, but he is our son of beach"

Saddam Husein bombed 2-3 villages, he is a bastard and have to be killed. Saakashvilli destroyed 10 villages overnihgt but he is "good democratic guy" and have to be protected. I'm sick from this western double standards

Sooooo we (Americans) REALLLY want to go to war against RUSSIANS??? What?? I dont care if the Russians eat babies and kick old ladies, there are some fights you just stay out of. Bush, Obama, McCain..they are all nuts. I think Americans, Russians and the Chinese need to sign a "Biggest and Baddest" Pact. We can trade goods, be nice and look the other way regarding internal affairs. This Wilsonian bent toward saving the world is not what our Founding Fathers had in mind. Its bad for our future and the future of the world. Trade with everyone, but stay home. Only fight people who screw with us..and maybe England, Australia/NZ, Canada and Mexico. The rest are on their own.
I am not a pacifist or a liberal nor am I a conservative. I am a realist. World saving is the job of missionaries, not the US government. Maybe I will run for president. This whole thing is scary. Are we really that dumb? Americans dont really give a crap about Georgia. They cant even find it on a map. They think its near Alabama somewhere. they just want cheap gas and jobs like everyone else.

R.L.
American troops are in 166 countries, not the 22 you stated. Maybe your lack of education can be used as an excuse for your voting for GWB not once, but twice. I'm glad you are now 'seeing the light' after so many bloody years. How many in your family are serving in the military?

Thank you for this post, only at the end of the conflict some medias start to open their eyes.
Even Yulia Latyninat,well knonw for her anti-kremlin position, has wrote:
"Late Thursday night, after destroying as much of Tskhinvali as it could with truck-mounted missiles, the Georgian military took control of the city. When giving the command to start the war, it would seem that Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili assumed that Russia would never bother to interfere."

PEOPLE LISTEN!

Why on a channel Euronews show the not tu picture of war of Georgia with Ossetia, distort facts, dead bodies of Georgians in the streets, our army did not kill peaceful people! Delirium! I have mourning, an aunt died in Tskhinvali, she was fired by the Georgian warrior, and then put to death a husband.....I cry, it is heavy about it to talk! I looked foreign channels, all tell, yvse not true! I AM FOR TRUE! The Georgian president said that already 2 days back they halted a fire, lie! Yesterday only blew up our peacemakers and 30 persons are injured!

you will load this page:
http://rapidshare.com/files/136993447/55.doc.html

I advise to look and read!

And after everything that Georgia to us zdelala, Georgia goes to the international court a lawsuit against Russia!

Over at Little Green Footballs, they’re quoting “La Russophobe”, an anonymous troll that unfortunately, is published on Pajamas Media, as an authority on Discovery Institute’s Real Russia Project and its website, Russia Blog. Plenty of very popular bloggers, like the author and geostrategist Thomas P.M. Barnett, have permalinked to Russia Blog and have occasionally cited it on their websites.

The author of Little Green Footballs, Charles Johnson, strongly dislikes the Discovery Institute for its position advocating "intelligent design theory". Regardless of how one feels about these scientific and culture war issues, they have nothing, zilch, to do with Russia or the Real Russia Project, except that Mr. Mamchur happens to work in the same building as the ID folks and has the name of their think tank on his website. Nonetheless, one would search Russia Blog in vain for the slightest mention of intelligent design or its advocates. So much for the idea of Russia Blog as a conspiracy to promote ID in Russia!

For the record, this troll “La Russophobe” has never provided the slightest evidence that they have travelled to Russia or speak Russian. By all evidence, this person or group of persons cannot look up the names of Russian institutions on yandex.ru or other websites, since he/she/they typically derides anyone not having a page on Wikipedia or getting any ENGLISH-language Google hits as "losers". For her, if Yuri Mamchur of Discovery Institute claims to have a degree from the Russian Tax Academy of Law, and this university cannot be found using an ENGLISH language Google search, then Mr. Mamchur’s degree is presumably fake and this institution does not exist. Naturally, La Russophobe did not correct her false post about Mr. Mamchur upon being confronted with the Russian-language website of the Russian Tax Academy of Law by several commenters, a Moscow institution that has existed for many decades. For La Russophobe, only a mailed diploma and dozens of other pieces of evidence from someone's personal life would suffice, but alas, Mr. Mamchur, values his privacy, and did not care to send documentation to an anonymous troll without so much as a P.O. box. Would you?

La Russophobe’s pattern, like that of any troll, is to always put the burden of proof on real people using their real names and always ask “have you stopped beating your wife lately” type questions. This was one reason why after two posts on Russia Blog in 2006, “Kim Zigfield” became the only person ever to be banned from Russia Blog. The editors of the website made an announcement at that time as to the reasons why. Kim Zigfield and her sock puppets were demanding that the editors of Russia Blog fact check and rebut every single comment made toward her or against her, as well as engaging in schoolyard insults of anyone who disagreed with her. This is akin to demanding that Tom Barnett, Richard Fernandez, or any other blogger who gets hundreds of comments a week read and respond personally to every single one, a physical impossibility for any sane person with a life outside of blogging (even for Charles Johnson!).

At the time that Kim Zigfield was banned, this person also claimed, that she could not find powdered cane sugar when she was in Russia (year and cities visited totally unspecified) and that it probably still did not exist in the country, along with many other basic consumer staples. When expats and Russia Blog readers from St. Petersburg to Sakhalin laughed at this, she declared that it was up to the editors of Russia Blog to produce bags of powdered sugar from the darkest corners of Siberia to disprove her statement. Typical troll behavior, the burden of prove is always on someone else.

Little Green Footballs' “lizardoids” have cited La Russophobe’s claim that the Real Russia Project, the program of Discovery Institute which publishes Russia Blog, is somehow affiliated with Russia Today TV, a Moscow-based, Russian government funded English language news channel that was launched in 2006 to give Russia its own equivalent of Al-Jazeera. Russia Blog has occasionally reposted Russia Today’s videos, but otherwise there is no evidence for this claim, and in fact, there is no affiliation. Kim Zigfield also claimed, in a convoluted, conspiratorial paragraph worthy of a John Birch Society member, that Russia Blog is connected to Russia Profile, a tiny bimonthly magazine that publishes out of the same old Soviet RIA Novosti building that Russia Today occupies in Moscow. However, other than a rare crosspost, and Russia Profile republishing Russia Blog's content, there is no relationship there either.

As for Russia Blog’s alleged connection with David Johnson, a Maryland-based Russophile who maintains a very large email listserv on Russia, like Tom Barnett, Mr. Johnson simply picks up Russia Blog content when he chooses to do so. There is no affiliation, and Mr. Johnson often posts articles harshly critical of Russia and its present leadership. Mr. Mamchur has done so as well, but like Time magazine, Mamchur has decided to give some credit where credit is due for the positive economic changes that have taken place in Russia these past few years.

La Russophobe implies that Russia Blog is part of a Kremlin-backed propaganda effort in the U.S., and Charles Johnson says its articles “read like a press release from the Kremlin”. But who backs La Russophobe? Obviously it someone's fulltime job, and not just the hobby of someone living in New York City, a very expensive place to spend hours every day on a hobby. Charles Johnson isn't interested in such questions, even when his own readers confront him with La Russophobe's track record of making wild accusations against anyone with a different point of view about Russia - that is, anyone who doesn't think that modern Russia is the Evil Empire reborn.

Thanks to Pajamas Media’s editor for allowing someone to finally set the record straight. I do not wish to engage the “Lizardoids” over on their turf at LGF or register with Mr. Charles Johnson, as he clearly has his mind made up even when confronted by his own readers with contrary facts about the credibility of “La Russophobe” and others.

Anything further I could say to him, as with “Kim Zigfield”, would get distorted and twisted beyond recognition before being reposted. And when “Kim Zigfield”, who is probably not a woman but a man, gets called to account for his/her slanders of anyone who disagrees with her, she plays the victim, saying “you slander La Russophobe”. That’s like saying someone is slandering Superman or Mickey Mouse - not a real person using their real name, or even a genuine dissident. New York City isn’t Teheran, Baghdad, or Beijing.

Over at LGF, Robert Spencer, the bestselling author of the book "Defeating Jihad", which is what LGF is supposed to be all about, is also accused of being a religious fanatic, and has clearly had it with the fever swamps. Just because LGF is a right wing libertarian fever swamp instead of a leftwing one like the Daily Kos doesn't make it any better (i.e. if Dinesh D’Souza and Spencer have the same publisher, ergo, Spencer must endorse D’Souza’s views, ergo, if Russia Blog has Discovery Institute on its masthead, everyone who contributes to it must endorse intelligent design, even when they say otherwise, if Kim Zigfield says Russia Profile is the same thing as Russia Blog or that they are connected just because the names sound the same and there has been some crossposting, ergo, it must be true).

Most of the time, Russia Profile's editors, like the editors of another website called iPutin, simply repost Russia Blog content without requesting permission, perhaps because they use a webcrawler to pick it up.

This is stupid, mindless, pack behavior from people that pride themselves on being smarter and more mature than the Kos Kidz and other denizens of websites they call the sewers of the Internet.

Great job! I am sick and tied of Sac lying.

I have seen here some very intelligent versions of what has happened. The author again as on other sites starts this as of 7 August. He forgets about the 1st through the 6th.

First second Georgian peacekeepers hurt in attacks and shelling of Geogain villages.

3rd 4th Evacuation of children and old people from South Ossetia. Confimred also.

5th not much

6 renewed shelling of Georgain Villages.
7th one part of it at the time stated in this quote.

President Saakashvili said in a live televised address made at 7:10pm, that he had ordered the Georgian forces to cease fire in South Ossetia. He said there were casualties, both dead and many people wounded. Saakashvili said that he ordered to cease fire "on purpose" to again offer the South Ossetian secessionists to resume talks.

As you can tell it was not even considered and shelling of Geogian villages started again.

Before this manuvers by the Russian army to invade Georgia. 1400-2000 casualties has been proven false along with most of the other claims. You just need to look for the facts and find out who is constintly lying or deceiving to know the truth

I believe the arguments being made are pointless. We all know Georgia ignited this conflict, we all know Russia used a certain amount of disproportionate force against tiny Georgia and its feeble army. However for Western nations, especially the United States, to criticize Russia on the actions it has taken is extremely hypocritical. President Bush continues to contradict his own policy decisions in the past by saying Russia is wrong for the actions taken. The United States does not have a clean record when it comes to the sovereignty of nations and the respect of territorial integrity. If I do recall we invaded Bosnia and Kosovo in clear and blatant defiance of international law, in violation of what was then Yugoslavian territory, and even supported and recognized Kosovo's unilateral independence, against the will of the UN, and in direct defiance of Serbia's internationally recognized borders. We also invaded a sovereign Iraq to overthrow a government we viewed as a threat to our interests and security. My question is; Why can the US and its allies do whatever it wants and get away with it, yet it expects every other nation to comply to its will and to simply obey the sole superpower's commands? These double standards are unacceptable. Quite frankly it is about time a nation put the US in its place and show it how limited its power is. It is my belief that from this moment, we will see a very different precedent in the world. The world is tired of US unilateralism, and its constant struggle to maintain a unipolar world order controlled from Washington. Nations like China, India, Russia, and to certain extent even the US allies in the European Union are tired of the US dictating what nations can and cannot do, and then commit itself to a completely different standard. Many nations across the world will soon realize this, and begin to fray away from the West. The US has shown it is willing to do whatever it deems necessary to preserve NATO's dominance and the US as the world's sole superpower indefinitely. That system will not last. Every empire in history has fallen, and the United States is no exception to that rule. The bigger they are, the harder they fall.

It'll be one hell of a fall, what with all those nukes...

I digress; The situation is out of control. Slanted Western media has painted Russia with a Cold War brush, attached the most sinister of motives to the actions they must take with a breaking of a ceasefire, deliberate murder of civilians and peacekeepers, and Georgian invasion against international law.

When a country breaks a law, they are not to be supported. They are to be tried, judged, and punished accordingly.

Georgia has shown it's greed for Ossetia and Abkhazi before. They have willingly and knowingly targeted civilians and peackeepers. They have defied the UN, and so have defied all the nations within the UN.

So why, in any circumstance, is Georgia being "supported"? Why is Russia being charged in international court? Who has done the wrongs?

Russia moved in troops after the deaths of peacekeepers and civilians. They fought Georgian troops and pushed back Georgian artillery. They have struck at military targets, which were being mobilized. Everything Russia has done is legal, under the conventions of the UN, and the Geneva Convention.

Georgia has not. They invaded while broadcasting a message of unity and camradarie, as they killed the very people they were calling brothers. They killed people defending their independence, and civilians. They attempted to take South Ossetia by force of arms, and are so rightly being pushed back to Georgian territory by force of arms. Russian reconnaissance reports upon military installations being mobilized, like the arms cache that they protected with human bodies. They built that installation there to utilize their own people as military assets.

The media is blinding people to the reality of the situation. They call out for blood, vengeance, against the only nation who has stepped forward and done what was neccesary. Russia made the only moral choice they could make. Peacekeepers were killed. Soldiers were attacking civilians.

I am amazed at the apathy of all the nations in the UN. I suppose they just don't care about the Ossetian lives lost to Georgian artillery. Few or many, we don't know. But we do know that no one cares. They just want their indignation and outrage over Russia's boldness.

Both sides have dogs in their ranks (or leadership) that need to be punished for misbehaving while their leashes were let up. Don’t make it impossible for America to punish theirs. If you press and can’t even maintain your own moral high ground then the leashes will be let loose.

I completely agree with your post.
I have been amazed with the way MSM did spin the facts. As you did point out Georgia dis strike first , breaking all the agreements previously signed.
MSM does forget such fact and does talk about russian agression as if the russians had attacked first.
It is amazing , indeed.
Thanks for letting us know the Saaskashvily speech , august the 7.
It is a masterpiece of lies.
Nowhere in the MSM what it published.
I guess I know why.
It would portray Saaskashvily as a liar.

One question is why where Ossetians leaving Tskhinvali before the conflict started. This is being used to suggest they knew something in advance! Infact Georgia actually claimed it was because Ossetians where gearing up for war.

The real catalyst for this conflict was in July when Georgia ceased the high ground near the village of Sarabuki. This clearly frightened a lot of residents in Tskhinvali and what other reason could Georgia have for doing this other than war?