Relatives of Oleg Golovanov, a Russian soldier killed during the fighting between Georgia and Russia, mourned during his funeral in Vladikavkaz, Russia. (Photo by The New York Times)
International reporting is definitely improving, but the holes are still major. For example, it is said in a Wall Street Journal op-ed that the Russians tried to bomb the Georgian oil pipeline, but there is no actual reporting to sustain this claim. Likewise, there is a reporting lacuna on what exactly precipitated the Georgian shelling of Tskhinvali. What exact provocations were they responding to? Their own story on this deserves to be heard. Was it something specific or general, or what? Did the Russians agitate the Ossetian militia; if so, how?
So, when did the "war" begin?
Meanwhile, there is no doubt that we have seen a serious diplomatic and political debacle for Georgia, the U.S. and even Russia, and to an extent, the European Union. Gratefully, the war--once it had been engaged--does not seem to have realized the extent of killing feared early on. It could have been worse. Of course, if you or someone you know is one of the statistics, that is no consolation.
Meanwhile, per Yuri Mamchur we learn that Gazeta.ru quotes Russian Health Ministry, Georgian Health Ministry, and Defense Ministries:
Russian losses (according to the Russians):
Military:
74 dead
171 injured
19 dissappeared
South Ossetian civilian losses:
1,500 -- 3,000 -- unconfirmed until collected by the Russians and/or the international community.
401 asked for medical attention, out of these 369 are hospitalized, including 62 children (confirmed by the Russians).
Georgian losses (according to the Georgians):
130 dead citizens total
1,165 total injured
No info on who is military who is civilian
Nearly 7,000-8,000 Georgian troops participated in the attack on Tshinvali, later joined by 800 from Iraq.
Meanwhile, Western news reports say 20,000 Russians and 600 tanks invaded Georgia.
If there was "ethnic cleansing" or executions on either side, we should learn about that. If not, we should confirm that.
Bruce Chapman served as United States Ambassador to the United Nations Organizations in Vienna, Austria from 1985 through 1988.
R.I.P. for that soldier and all the soldiers that died in this war and all the wars ever!
As far as I know from my grandparents the russian army is an army of savages, violators, individuals that were very capable in stealin' your watch or to get drunk. Be ashamed, some of th erussians beleives that they cand destroy a country, that they cand violate women and kill everyone as in the sixties. I don't say that everything was right in this war. A war can't be right, I'm just sayin' that Ossetia and Abkazia are georgian territories, not russian. They have the right to be there.
As far as it concerns me I'm just considering that the russian army is an army of violators, rapists and savages as in the WW2, Hungary, Ceckoslovakia and the examples can continue! Shame on you!
"Russians tried to bomb the Georgian oil pipeline, but there is no actual reporting to sustain this claim. "
The Daily Telegraph reported the story first. The WSJ just published the pictures. What more do you need?
Klaus,
i am sorry to say this, but it feels like there is no substance to what you are saying whatsoever. Your claims are amateurish at best, ignorant - at worst. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are historically populated by Russians, which is, partly, why Russia has such an invested interested in the region. Secondly, they both have the exact same right to sovereignty as other countries that WERE backed by the US. And, finally, your perception of the Russian army is another example of an ethnocentric mentality of a pro-westerner. Wasn't the American army recently blamed for atrocious acts of torture? i guess it's all different depending on which side of the camp you are on.
@ JTapp,
If Russians were actually bombing the pipeline, why aren't oil prices going up? Where is the link to the WSJ photos?
The pipeline has been shut down since the PKK or someone else attacked it in Turkey last week. Presumably Azerbaijani crude is being shipped across the Caspian thru Soviet-era ussian pipelines. Saakashvili ordered the assault on South Ossetia's capital just a few hours later. Maybe he did not want to get blamed for problems with the pipeline? The Georgian government certainly cannot afford those 5k to 10k per person Heritage Foundation dinners and $250,000 in fees to Randy Scheunemann's firm which lobbies John McCain with just revenues from the pipeline.
@JTapp
I don't wanna make idiotic afirmations. I just want you to know that you, the russians have an wonderful culture, great writers, but also leaders like Hruschov, Stalin (georgian) Lenin and so on. That's why, we, the east europeans, don't welcome you in our lands. The people of Chechoslovakia knows what I'm talking about (you killed the leaders of the revolution in 1968 after the invasion and you denied their right to live free), Hungary knows what I'm talking about (you denied Hungary's people in 1954 the right to be free, you invaded this country), Poland knows (you destroyed Poland in WW2, together with the Nazi Germany), people of Romania knows what I'm talking about (you stole Moldavia from my country, you gave also to Ukraine regions of Romania -> Bucovina and south Basarabia), East Germany knows what I'm talkin' about. My grandfather was forced to leave from Basarabia 1945 under heavy bombing. The russians took everything from him. He refugiated in Romania. Even though he used to speak russian with fluent language he never used it again. He was not even romanian 100%, half he was of slavic descendence. Bearing this in mind, believe me, I don't hate anybody. I think that every nation in the world have the right to chose to live the way they want! And I do believe that the mentality of the russian soldiers is barbar! I hope something to change and I think that NATO is the best answer to the russian attitude. Don't get me wrong. I think USA made a terrible mistake in Kosovo and Irak. I hope that they won't do something wrong in Iran.
14.08.08
It’s a shame that all those young Russian soldiers had to die. Also the thousands of innocent civilians in Ossetia. All because of the World War Conspiracy who wanted to make a new war. And this is just a prelude.
I would like to thank the Russian government for what they have done. There was no other way out than not to allow for any more of innocent people to be slaughtered. I would also like to apologise for my government, the Polish “presidentâ€, a Mr. Kaczynski who, I’m sorry to say, went to Georgia and announced he’s a friend to Georgian government. He is not talking in my name, or in the name of anyone I know. Unfortunately our Polish, just like the Georgian government has been hijacked and is corrupt.
Also, what western, and eastern media mafia is telling the world and brainwashing them, is beyond the pale. It reminds me of George Orwell’s book “1984†with the slogans “War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strengthâ€. I feel like I’m an inhabitant of Orwell's Oceania.
Today is a very sad day for Poland for another reason. Polish government agreed to Americans’ building an exterritorial base on the Polish soil. With atomic missiles on board and American army in the base (called “a shieldâ€). This saddens me extremely, as to me, it is another mischievous step aiming at immersing the world in a world war. I would like to ask Mr. Putin and Mr. Miedviediev, to help us and help the world and do everything to prevent that fatal move on the side of the Polish government.
Russia acts today as the last peacemaker on this planet and our last hope. Russia is the only country that can bring peace to the world. Please Russia, you are our big brother, help us in this uneven fight with the forces of evil.
@Klaus
You are damn wrong in some points.
1) What has happened to Hungary, Poland, Tchechoslovakia, etc was done by SOVIET Army, not Army of Russian Federation.
2) What US Army has done in Haditha in Iraq way tragic but they had to wipe out the floors and rooms from where Iraqi bandits shot at them. Such are the rules of war - better them than us. It was not American fault that the thugs hid behind backs of civilian population.
3) A quote - "think that NATO is the best answer to the russian attitude. Don't get me wrong. I think USA made a terrible mistake in Kosovo and Irak. I hope that they won't do something wrong in Iran."
Thinking that NATO is the best answer... is naivety or stupidity. So far NATO forces sold people in Srebrenica for a few packs of cigarettes. Thinking that "US made a terrible mistake..." is wishful thinkig. They did it purposely according to their interest in those regions. You do not try to think in terms of the other side. You are a political toddler.
4) My advice - start thinking and seeing Russians as victims of the same cancer tissue which inslaved the whole East Europe AND Russia. Russian thinks that way. They feel victims of the Soviet Union. Such attitude will help you understand present events and will help you open eyes on Western countries and US globalism with her push for world dominance. Do you realy think that US would help you if she didn't have any interest in doing that? Do not be so naive.
Start reading The Vineyard of the Saker:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/
Start with latest analyses from recent days.
Regards
@devoczka
Right. Polish government is a bunch of morons and traitors who sell-out Poland's interests to American neocon strategists.
All the morons who do not understand that the part of the missile shield in Poland is created against Russia I invite to see the maps I gathered in one place under my post on my blog. The post is entitled "Russia Should Embrace Turkey into CIS!"
http://p2o2.blogspot.com/2008/07/russia-should-embrace-turkey-into-cis.html
Regards
@devoczka
You made me laugh :)
@Klaus
Maybe you should research how Russia became communist in the first place who financied and lead the Bolsheviks.
Up until 67 who were the ones of commanded the soviet army?
Who was sent by Moscow to put down the Hungarian uprising and who dominated the government they were uprising against?
They have the same ethnic heritage as the Necons in the US and they wre not Russian.
http://www.russians.org/communist.html
@ james
I don't care about no ones origin. I just know that the leaders of Russia ordered the killing of one million people between 1935-1938; 1942; 1945 - 1950 and I'm not talking about enemy soldiers. They killed russians. Another example, millions were incarcerated in the Gulag (forced work camps). In Georgia aproximately 80.000 people were shot in 1921; 1923 -1924; 1935 - 1938; 1942; 1945 -1950. More than 100.000 were transportated in the Gulag. In 1940 Stalin and his fellow leaders of the USSR signed and ordered the killing of 27.000 russian intellectuals and 15.000 polish officers (the Kathyn massacre). Russians killed and humiliated about 40.000 war prisoners. Stalin (nice guy) ordered the killing of about 20 millions russians. I don't think that they wre neocons, democrats, republicans or somtehing else. Those wre his own people. I don't hate russians, but I think they must be ashamed for what they did in the last half of century. And oh yeah, my country lost important territories thanks to Russia and Nazi Germany (Molotov - Ribentrop treaty).
I liked the factual introdution and the questioning of the initial phases by B. Chapman.
Comments in the Herald Tribune from the US administration officials in the Herald Tribune imply that the ebullient' Georgia president launched hostilities against US warnings, thinking support would come anyhow.
Concerning the pipeline story Klaus is right (if he is joking):even the Romans knew that such 'proof' as report by the Daily Telegraph
amount to nothing (unus testis)and pictures are no more facts than paintings.
@Klaus
You inveterate idiot. Your country lost important territories to
either
1)SOVIET UNION and NAZI Germany
or
2) Russia and GERMANY
Do you see the difference?
Soviet Union killed in Kathyn both intellectuals and military officers - the best of the best from Polish nation. The same did to Russians. Both Poles and Russians were victims of SOVIET UNION. Should I shout it to your ear from 1 cm in order you to understand the facts? You are not only russophobic from heart but ignoramous of Europe's History. Or simply - a moron.
Leave it to James to blame all the world's problems on the jeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwssssssss, and link to some weirdo's website for confirmation of the claim that Georgia is crawling with Israeli military advisors and Mossad agents.
"First they come at you with the claw..." as Sacha Baron Cohen aka Borat says. Maybe James thinks the Georgians should also throw the Jews down the well so their country can be free?
I don't want people coming to this fine website, reading James bizarre comments, and concluding that the editors are a bunch of anti-Semites. Little Green Footballs and others wouldn't be beneath saying so.
@P2O2
Thank you for your "compliment". But I guess the idiot around here is not me. You are just one of the so called "maneuver mass" individuals, people that belives that they know everything, but they eat what the media offers them.
Regards!
@P2O2
Please click on the link below. You gotta be really proud of your army, and yes, I'm talking about the Russian Federation army, not the USSR army...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdPOLRaonzs&eurl=http://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-international-3982520-video-soldati-rusi-surprinsi-timp-jefuiesc-banca-din-gori.htm
@Klaus
The notion of "Russians being victimized by Soviet Union" is NOT disseminated by media as they (their journalists) do not understand what it means.
If you looked into my blog you would know that I ate what I like, not what the media would like me to gobble down.
War is war. The worst thing to the nations is to keep mentally in the past of romanticized sentiments which render them unable to move ahead.
Regards.
Truth about war in Ossetia that is overlooked by BBC and CNN
At 7 p.m. on August 8, the day when Olympics started, worldwide community heard from CNN and BBC news that Russian tanks invaded Georgia and that Russia started war with Georgia.
That the war had begun 16 hours earlier by Georgian president Sukashvili’s order these media preferred to pass over in silence.
But you have the right to know truth. That’s how this really happened:
According to old tradition of Olympic Games’ eve everyone was looking for peace and quiet. On August 7, Georgian and South Ossetian officials agreed to observe a ceasefire and hold debates in attempt to solve their long-term conflict peacefully.
August 8, 00:06
Just hours later, six minutes past midnight on August 8, inhabitants of Ossetian capital Tskhinvali, peacefully sleeping in their beds, heard dreadful whizz of incoming rockets. The hell followed soon... Without any declaration Georgian forces launched massive shelling of Tskhinvali with all available means, including heavy artillery and multiple-launch rocket systems GRAD. In this massacre, in just several hours, the whole city was ruined: 2,000 human lives wasted and 85% of all buildings demolished. Georgian military expedition, called “Clean fieldâ€, yielded its first fruits…
August 8, 03:00
Georgian army occupied five Ossetian villages, burning them to ashes.
August 8, 03:30
Georgian tanks started attack on Tskhinvali. Ossetian militia stood up to the enemy but could not keep back 30-times outnumbering Georgian forces. Many basements where Ossetins tried to escape shelling were showered with grenades. At the very same time, Georgian “peacekeepersâ€, serving in South Ossetia, launched unexampled attack on their yesterday’s colleagues, Russian peacekeepers, managing to kill at least 10 of them.
August 8, 04:33
Russia called for UN Security Council meeting to put a stop to Georgian military aggression and seize fire. No decision was delivered at neither this nor several following meetings.
August 8, 09:00
Russian Prime Minister Putin informed President Bush that Georgia launched war against Ossetia. Mr. Bush answered that “nobody wanted this warâ€.
Ossetia was praying for help. It was already obvious that “clean field†meant nothing else but ethnical cleansing. In these circumstances, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev announced that Russia would defend Russian citizens who constitute 90% of South Ossetia population.
August 8, 16:00
Russian forces overstepped mountain pass and made their way toward perishing Ossetins. That was exactly the moment when CNN and BBC finally “noticed†the war and broadcasted their «Russians invaded Georgia» scenes. Sukashvili announced that Russia invaded Georgia and held back that he started this horrible bloodshed himself.
Before midnight, Russian and Ossetian forces kicked aggressors out of Ossetian capital. Survived citizens started to leave basements to escape the city. In the next couple days around 30,000 refugees fled to Russia.
Failed Georgian assault turned to informational blackout and devilish propaganda by politicized media feeding us their lies. It’s time when so much depends on your personal position! I believe that there will be journalists who can give objective picture of these events. I believe in people of peace who will regard an attempt of massive extermination of small nation as genocide (3% of South Ossetins and 0.3% of all Ossetins worldwide were killed in just one night on August 8; fascists have never achieved that efficiency in exterminating Jewish people even when Auschwitz and Treblinka were working at full capacity). I believe in a world community that will view Sukashvili’s inhuman orders as war crime and an outrage on humanity. I believe in you, thinking person, able to confront with facts, person who will not follow barefaced propaganda of deeply corrupt media, person able to recognize truth!
Ossetians and abkhazians lived peacfully and friendly with georgians until 20th century.when ussr occupied georgia,they said:if georgia needs independence,they will lose samachablo(south ossetia) and abkhazia,and you see,what happens,no doubt,saakashvili began war,and helped russia to realize their awfull dreams,if saakashvili and russia leaves,twice sides of conflict will make it easies and i'm sure everything ends wonderfully...
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