By Sergei Roy
Editor of guardian.psj.ru and the now defunct (but much beloved) Intelligent.ru
Left to right: Sergei Ivanov, Dmitry Medvedev, Vladimir Putin
The Putin regime will continue without Putin in his present slot, the transition will be accomplished smoothly, without upheavals, bloody strife, August 1998-like “defaults,” “sovereignty parades,” or the like.
It seems like decades since the famous “Who is Mr. Putin?” brick was dropped at Davos. Instead of the supercilious eyebrows raised at a political inconnu, we now have a continually swelling plethora of articles, collections of papers, monographs, hefty volumes, memoirs, TV debates, internet forums, etc. etc., all devoted to the man and his doings. There is in fact a whole word-processing industry entirely concerned, to paraphrase Jerome K. Jerome, with what Mr. Putin has done, does do, will do, won’t do, can do, can’t do, was doing, is doing, is going to do, shall do, shan’t do, and is about to be going to have done.
A major branch of this industry, inflating by the minute in view of “problem 2008,” belabors the issue of, Will he or won’t he? Seek a third term in office, what else. There is a subdivision here: If he will not – who is most likely to succeed him? High time someone ran a tote on this, for the stakes are quite high. Much higher than in guessing which quadruped will run faster than the next.
Just as with quadrupeds, there is an exciting element of guesswork here, despite the evidence of form books and such. Some guesses are astute, others ridiculous, still others idiotic – all in a day’s work, or game. When I edited intelligent.ru (defunct now, in case you have not noticed), a certain political scientist wrote a lengthy article for it to prove that Russia’s next president would be Mr. Vladimir Yakunin, president of Russia’s Railways. The point was so thoroughly argued, and with such aplomb, that I now prick up my ears whenever I see Mr. Yakunin perform on TV. He does seem, judging by those appearances entirely, like an intelligent guy with a firm grasp on the job in hand, but – presidential material? I can only shrug my shoulders fit to dislocate one or both of them.
Still, there is a school of thought among Russia pundits, mostly abroad, that holds that Putin is keeping some unknown card up his sleeve, an heir presumptive whose name he will throw in at the eleventh hour: “Most insiders suspect there will be a last-minute stealth candidate, in keeping with how Putin himself emerged and how he operates” (see “Russia under Putin: Democracy or Dictatorship?” by Stephen Kotkin, 7 March 2007).
I do not have access to the secret suspicions of “most insiders,” or any insiders for that matter (I strongly suspect that neither has Mr. Kotkin). I am aware, though, that this is 2007 and will soon be 2008, not 1999; that Mr. Putin is not Mr. Yeltsin, nor does he “operate” like the latter – rather the reverse, judging by the results the two men have achieved; and that there is simply no need for Vladimir Putin to spring any dark horse on an apathetic electorate that would welcome the devil himself just to be rid of the incumbent, of whom the said electorate was sick and tired to the point of nausea and beyond.
There are several quite obvious things that Mr. Putin is doing on this issue of “succession.” These things are there for all to see and draw conclusions from, and it is not Mr. Putin’s fault that pundits prefer to invent more pundit-like, convoluted schemata, to bolster their reputations for acuity in the spin business.
Point one: Putin keeps saying, or rather trying to drum into his listeners’ consciousness, that Russia has got to learn the basics of democracy, including respect for the Constitution; that he will not therefore succumb to the entreaties of either the broad public or sections of the elite that have done particularly well during his tenure to seek a third term in office. No use drawing parallels with Franklin D. Roosevelt’s four terms; all that is journalist talk, Russia in the early 21st century is not USA in the 20th, and he will step aside come 2008, whatever the 32nd US president may have done in his time.
Point two: Putin says that he does not intend to appoint his successor. There is indeed absolutely no need for him to make any dramatic announcements on New Year’s Eve, like his predecessor did in a move that had the country so delighted with his stepping down that it swallowed the “successor” bit (although this writer is on record as expressing at the time his rather fierce disgust not just with such an undemocratic procedure but also with Mr. Putin for going along with it). Right now Mr. Putin merely reserves the right – vouchsafed to any citizen of Russia – to express his preference for someone whom he would like to see as the country’s next president. If lots of people follow his tip, well, that’s the people’s own business. Nothing undemocratic about a personal opinion – everyone is entitled to it.
Point three: Putin is putting into positions of prominence and responsibility valued members of his team, particularly Sergei Ivanov and Dmitry Medvedev, where they have lots of public exposure and where their success or failure at their highly important, crucial tasks is there for all to see. That’s a far cry from undemocratic tricks like unexpectedly throwing Mr. Kotkin’s, or his mythical insiders’ “stealth candidates” into the works. Practically the whole electorate has ringside seats right now, so there is a good case for Vladimir Putin’s assertion that it is the people of Russia who will decide what president they want.
As matters stand at the moment, lots of people in the Russian street have already made their decision (or so I hear as I keep my ear to the ground): Sergei Ivanov for president (he has had more exposure to international affairs and looks and acts more “paternal”); Dmitry Medvedev for premier (he is younger and has more of the air of a technocrat about him). As we say in Russian, vozmozhny varianty “other scenarios are possible” (some point to Foreign Minister Lavrov as a presidential possibility), but a “stealth candidate” is not one of them. In this situation, only the self-appointed, mostly Transatlantic Russia watchers, pundits etc. may feel that nagging need for a “stealth candidate.” One wonders why – to make Russia appear more of a political jungle than it really is, perhaps? To bolster their cherished view of Putin as a grey KGB colonel with his sinister, KGB ways?
In the situation as it is shaping up in reality, not in some analysts’ fevered imagination, I would say that Putin will not even need to announce his preference for a specific individual. He may just say, “Dear voters, dear deeply respected people of Russia! I have put enough capable men in the limelight; you have seen them tested in serving your interests, so please make your choice, free and fair.”
Privately, he may feel completely confident that the choice will be as indicated above. If it is, the people of Russia will feel satisfied that things will not slip back to the 1990s sort of shambles. The Putin regime will continue without Putin in his present slot, the transition will be accomplished smoothly, without upheavals, bloody strife, August 1998-like “defaults,” “sovereignty parades,” or the like. And that’s democracy enough for Russia at the present stage.
The question remains, of course, what Mr. Putin himself is going to do in his afterlife, and how Russian democracy will evolve from its current state. There are some promising possibilities there. I hope to discuss them in a separate piece.
Comments
LOL: you are right about US commentators always looking for a 'stealth candidate'. But this is a hallmark of US-style intellectuals: cloak it in a caveat, poke it in a conspiracy and then make it secret 'revealed'. It is as much as Russia can do to live up to it...
Posted by: Red Exile | March 18, 2007 6:46 AM
Well, don't we have the same in the United State?
People will say that Putin is an ex-KGB man, yet Bush SR was CIA chief.
Then the US talks about conspiracies or appointed candidates in Russia while we have father (Bush SR) and son (Bush JR) team with a bother (Jeb Bush) hoping for an opportunity to be president. Father and son sounds more like Saddam handing off to Uday.
The US with it's claimed advanced democracy is in fact a "one party system" divided by TWO. Democrats and republicans are nearly identical. And if you do have a rouge president such as Bush Jr, you can't have a "no confidence" vote whatsoever. Impeachment is too complicated.
So how much power do 3rd parties have in America? About as much power as a none communist party in the Soviet Union had.
To complicate things more, Al Gore won the popular vote but Bush won the electorate vote.
Voting by delegate was something Saddam and Stalin used, not exactly the same but voting by popular vote places accountability and power into the people and not some party (paradox as there is no accountability in the US at any levels). But in WW2 Germany, the USSR, and Saddam's Iraq needed "consultants" (delegates) to adjust the votes incase the people didn't understand what they were doing.
And to this end, electoral style voting is a method whereby the gov sends a message to the people that "you are too stupid". This is why Bush lied about wmd and eluded that Saddam had something to do with Al-queda or 9/11. Bush's lies, according to the republican party, they were "GOOD LIES". The lies were to help America understand. Bush was afraid of the truth like America (gov) is of popular vote.
Anyway, there has been a lot more referendums in Eastern Europe and the CIS than in all Western nations combined.
It's the US gov that I find suspect because most Americans believe Bush has lost Iraq, and yet Bush sends in more troops for the sole mission of trying to protect Bush's pride and ego.
I think 2008 elections in Russia will be just fine. It's the 2008 elections in the US that scare the crap out of me.
Posted by: Luther G. Quick | March 18, 2007 11:54 AM
I have a natural leaning to Sergei Shoigu. He's just very good (and of course thoroughly competent).
Throw in to that he is a Army General and 'Mr. Emergency' and a Hero of Russia to boot. Oh, and he's very popular too.
Posted by: Aleks | March 18, 2007 6:01 PM
TO LUTHER G. QUICK
Hello Luther!
Welcome back! Now I can continue my research about you :))!!:)
1.
“So how much power do 3rd parties have in America? About as much power as a none communist party in the Soviet Union had.”
It would be very ignorant to presume that !!!
Everybody knows that in soviet union all other parties were eventually PHYSICALLY ELIMINATED, KILLED OR IMPRISONED. It was not a question of lack of votes it was a question of killing of those who voted for other parties.
2.
“Voting by delegate was something Saddam and Stalin used, not exactly the same but voting by popular vote”
a) Voting by delegate
FYI: Voting by delegates in US is a mechanism of representative democracy . Democracy never meant to be a rule of a simple majority of people .
EDUCATE YOURSELF:
“de•moc•ra•cy (dĭ-mŏk'rə-sē Form of government in which supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a SYSTEM OF REPRESENTATION usually involving periodic free elections. In a direct democracy, the public participates in government directly (as in some ancient Greek city-states, some New England town meetings, and some cantons in modern Switzerland). MOST DEMOCRACIES TODAY ARE REPRESENTATIVE.”
http://www.answers.com/topic/democracy
Rule by simple majority called OCHLOCRACY “Government by the masses “
“http://www.answers.com/topic/ochlocracy . Is what you are preaching? Are you pro OCHLOS person? ( look through the definition of term OCHLOS: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3793)
Rule of majority not limited by representation brought to power Hitler, by the way, is what you are looking for?
b) Saddam and Stalin :
One more time again, you are saying ignorant and not supported by facts , and therefore immoral, nonsense. You are, again ,trying to glamorize soviet union. You are embarrassing yourself, and you are insulting all those who were perished under soviet rule .
FYI: Voting in soviet times was a voting with ONE NAME in the ballet. Is it that hard to comprehend? I saw those bullets and I had to vote this way. You cannot tell me that it is the same as in USA because I do vote in this country and I did vote in USSR: I CAN COMPARE and you can not
By the way, you want to understand difference between USA and USSR/Sadams Iraq?
I will explain: In you USA you can openly, on the record, be anti government as you are. In USSR and IRAQ you would be dead and you would have to do something physically hard but very useful in the labor camp. In other words, you would be a slave.
In USA you can be openly anti- USA exposing yourself as an ignorant and vicious person but, because ignorance is not against the law in USA, you can go like that forever. Who cares?
So, Luther, enjoy USA democracy which allows you to be openly, hysterically “anti USA democracy”
This is what democracy is about. I wish you would be in USSR :))
3.
“But in WW2 Germany, the USSR, and Saddam's Iraq needed "consultants" (delegates) to adjust the votes incase the people didn't understand what they were doing.”
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Saddams Iraq in WW2??? It sounds incoherent ,I think it is too much even for you, Luther!!
Germany, the USSR needed "consultants" (delegates) to adjust the votes incase the people didn't understand what they were doing??? CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND GULAG were adjustments methods, back then . Stop your pro-soviet propaganda . On a Russian blog you are exposing your ignorance in the Russian history, is not a shame??? Give me facts , examples of what you are saying , could you please?
4.
“Anyway, there has been a lot more referendums in Eastern Europe and the CIS than in all Western nations combined.”
So what ?
In CIS countries freedom of movement through the country is restricted , freedom of transfer of money abroad is restricted , in Russia all governors are appointed by PUTIN and TV is controlled by state. So, enjoy your referendums in CIS!!!
Eastern Europe:
nobody arguing democratization of Eastern Europe. By the way which is done only because USA took its stand with Soviet Union and now protecting interests of Eastern Europe against Russia ( too over-zealous in my view ) Eastern European democracy happened ( with all its referendums) only because USA were firm enough with your favorite soviet union otherwise they even today would be soviet vassals
Luther:
You are recently, on the record, admitted that you are considering Belarusian citizenship. Did you??? It explains a lot. With your, on the record, anti-Americanism and ignorant, dishonest , immoral and untruthful glamorization of USSR , with your vicious anti- American propaganda on Russian blog you are trying to get your Belarusian citizenship secured. may be you think that you will need these transcript when you applying to Belarusian citizenship?
cheers:)
"AL"
Posted by: "AL" | March 18, 2007 8:12 PM
Al,
I answered your last comments and Charles or Yuri decided not to post them.
So give your true identity. Why do you never post your email address or web site? If you believe in your BS then show your self. People who don't believe in their words hide like school children.
You are a coward and a fake "Al". A Sigmund Freud wannabe. You are analyzing me? This is like Bush becoming a linguist.
You are a yes man, a panderer and a failure running away from the country you were born in.
I never glamorized the Soviet Union, what the f--- is wrong with you? You have wasted your life and need to support America in order to leave some legacy.
-----------------------
Charles,
I see this crap all the time. Immigrants that move to the US look at the world and are so proud when they see other immigrants coming to America, following in their foot step, as if to legitimize or reinforce their choice.
However, if an America looks out the window, and sees something better and considers moving to another country, HOLY S---. Everyone looks at them like some traitor, some unpatriotic man.
I have fun poking at these “types” of immigrants, by posing and using language whereby I make it look like my reason for leaving is the same as their reason. It’s hypocrisy.
Posted by: Luther G. Quick | March 19, 2007 9:30 AM
to Al:
"In CIS countries freedom of movement through the country is restricted , freedom of transfer of money abroad is restricted , in Russia all governors are appointed by PUTIN and TV is controlled by state. So, enjoy your referendums in CIS!!!"
a) There is no restrictions for money transfers in Russia. What your saying before about 5000$ it just restriction of some money transfer system like Western Union etc, that can't take more then 5000$ PER TRANSFER.
b) To leave in Moscow/SPB you don't need "propiska", just "registration" that can be easily taken if you have any job.
c) www.monkey-habits.com read this, and stop throwing bullshit(without ANY PROVE AND EVIDENCE) in your homeland, you are never will be whiter than you are.
d) Soviet Union and Stalin made many really terrible things, but Russia IS NOT Soviet Union, and never will be it again.
Posted by: Vladislav Gusev | March 19, 2007 5:55 PM
to LUTHER G. QUICK |!
You see Luther you again not answering any of my questions and leaving all my exposure of your ignorant mistakes without any answer.
Instead you are asking my name and you are complaining to Charles on me ( is it your boss : )??) You are crying about those horrible immigrants that made your life so miserable.
You have nothing to tell ?Again??? You are always either too busy to respond or Blog hosts decided to do not post your feedback, you always have an excuse. But you have time to post your insults and hosts allow you do to do that
Whatever, let us go step by step:
1.
“I answered your last comments and Charles or Yuri decided not to post them.”
Well, may be it was even worse than your usual comments? Anyway it is between you and them. I hope it is not a censorship. What I know for sure that none of my concrete questions were answered by you, and I did exposed numerous of your mistakes in your posting which where left without response either. Looks to me that you had nothing to tell in your defense
2.
“So give your true identity. Why do you never post your email address or web site?”
This is interesting: did I reach you that much?? : ))
I would I give you my true identity? I do it only if I think that what I do is important. My exchange with you, is not any priority for me and it is not that important to get too involved in that.
“If you believe in your BS then show your self.”
In opposite, if you are exposing yourself you are not about your thoughts and arguments you all about publicity for yourself personally, or example, you “Luther Quick” are trying to be cute , by being anti-American . It is all about you and about your silly vanity. For me important is only substance , facts, logic of internet disputes not true Ids
“People who don't believe in their words hide like school children.”
Really ? Who said that ? You again exposing your ignorance: numerous authors and philosophers wrote under pseudonyms. What you are writing is important not under what name. All over internet all debates are predominantly under pseudo names. It makes it convenient and more content, less person driven way of communication. If you have not ability to comprehend this concept it is your misery not mine.
“You are a coward and a fake "Al". A Sigmund Freud wannabe. You are analyzing me?“
I am not analyzing you I am researching cultural pathology which I think you represent , it is a sort of cultural study … well it is too complicated for you any way.
“This is like Bush becoming a linguist.”
You do obsessed with Bush ?
“You are a yes man, a panderer and a failure running away from the country you were born in.”
running away from the country I were born in? You mean USSR?
How could I run from this country if country of my birth does not exist anymore? If you are capable for simple logical procedures you can comprehend that. Anyway, I did explain in my previous postings that I was not running from anywhere. I can not go through this the circle with over and over again with you . But ,if “running away from the country I were born in” is such a bad thing why you are considering German/ or Belarusian citizenship? Luther, are you “running away from the country I were born in” and, therefore, you proudly, with your name on the record, is writing again and again same things which has neither historical nor logical foundation.???
“I never glamorized the Soviet Union, what the f--- is wrong with you?”
Really? When you are denying slavery /gulag in soviet union, when you are saying that USSR had same level of democracy as the USA you are glamorizing USSR.ther are other examples as well
“You have wasted your life and need to support America in order to leave some legacy.”
Thank you for your concern about my wasted life but my life is just fine, and I do not worry about legacy of mine because I already built already my legacy in both countries.
“I see this crap all the time.”
i told you once that is a tragedy that all you capable to see around you is a CRAP. it is some sort of inability to see good things. I hope it is treatable,.
“Immigrants that move to the US look at the world and are so proud when they see other immigrants coming to America, following in their foot step, as if to legitimize or reinforce their choice.’
Well it is very said that you are such a racist and anti-immigrant person. Russian emigrants by the way gave to USA TV, helicopter and Google to make a short list. You know what you are afraid of? I think you understand that whatever you professionally doing( I hope demagoguery in internet is not your main occupation) whatever you are doing emigrant from Russia in average can do it better than you. This is why you so anti-immigrant . You are scared, pal, it is a panic attack.
“However, if an America looks out the window, and sees something better and considers moving to another country, HOLY S---. Everyone looks at them like some traitor, some unpatriotic man.”
I never said you are traitor, (are you??? if so I did not know that ) what I am saying that you are consider moving in other country and in the same you are trying ( unsuccessfully) to belittle and humiliate others who moved in your country. And what I am saying that is cannot be both ways.
“I have fun poking at these “types” of immigrants, by posing and using language whereby I make it look like my reason for leaving is the same as their reason. It’s hypocrisy.”
You did explain your reasons : you think that economically CIS is more promising place, you think that fry chicken is running out in this country , and therefore you , Warren Buffet, Halliburton and your wife are moving out. I lost my country , it was disintegrated ,therefore I had to leave ,you are abandoning your country because you are afraid to loose your prosperity with your fry chicken.
cheers:)
"AL"
Posted by: "AL" | March 20, 2007 9:01 AM
To Vlad Gusev!
Thank you for your feedback Vladislav
You are rude with me but you at least responding point by point .It makes our conversation may be not that pleasant as it could be if you would restrain from rudeness, but it is at least concrete conversation about concrete things:
1.
“ There is no restrictions for money transfers in Russia. What your saying before about 5000$ it just restriction of some money transfer system like Western Union etc, that can't take more then 5000$ PER TRANSFER.”
First of all we are talking about CIS not only about RUssia , in Belarus for example these restrictions are much stronger But if we even talking ONLY about restriction on 5000$ PER TRANSFER it is still a restriction, isn’t it?
2.
“To leave in Moscow/SPB you don't need "propiska", just "registration" that can be easily taken if you have any job.”
this is what I mean: to get a job you need propiska, to get propiska you need a job : catch 22.
But if you need a "registration" which can be easily taken with a job is it not a restriction on freedom of movement within the country? Why anybody ,in not restricted country, would need a job to leave freely in the city ? it is a restricton that does not exist anywere else.
3.
“) Soviet Union and Stalin made many really terrible things, but Russia IS NOT Soviet Union, and never will be it again.”
I never said that USSR and Russia are the same , and I do hope that Russia never will be USSR again, but, eventually, it is up to you, up to those who leave in this country. Nobody saying you have to leave like anybody else , just when you are making comparisons between of west with Russia you have to compare it fully without omitting things that you do not like .
4.
“you are never will be whiter than you “
Indeed it is true , I would never be the same , country gave me a lot. But the opposite is true as well :me and my family gave a lot to this country . Working hard being enslaved in gulags , serving in the army etc. etc.,so it goes both ways .
I have no hard feeling against my former country. I wish it all the best sincerely. . Although, it is sad that it did not take neither me nor hundreds of thousands former soviet union citizens who were working for USSR in other republciks and did stuck in eastern soviet republics. Neither Russia nor Belarus taking them back
I wish all the best to ALL countries I just see that for you guys being “ pro-your own country” is necessarily being against somebody else and this is sad. So when I wish all the best to ALL countries it includes USA in this list and I just do not you to extort the truth about USA making incorrect comparisons
Thank you
Posted by: AL | March 20, 2007 10:50 AM
To Luther and AL,
We appreciate your spirited discussion, we just kindly ask that you refrain from using profanity/obscenities and personal abuse if possible.
Best regards,
Charles Ganske
Posted by: Charles Ganske | March 20, 2007 2:13 PM
To Charles Ganske:
Thank you for your concern and I would be ready to do my best to make the polemic more civilized .
Although, sadly, I see nothing “spiritual” in my “ discussion” with Luther. Discussion, is by definition “questioning/ answering” communication. So far I received no answers on any of my questions. But I see your point, I do not like this style of polemic either.
However, I do reserve the right to respond if/when I would be inappropriately attacked and I will leave it on my discretion. Using the words of Alexandr Nevsky: Those who come with a sword to us will die from that sword!:)
Obviously it is your blog and you free to do not post my comments, they do not go with the general spirit of this blog in anyway.
Thank you
AL
Posted by: AL | March 21, 2007 6:14 AM
to Charles:
about Profanity:
Profanity?
I never used profanity in any of my postings. Words BS are a weapon of choice of virtually of all my opponents ( read transcripts) , so about profanity you have to address to my opponents, not to me.
AL
Posted by: AL | March 21, 2007 6:26 AM
SHOCK HORROR!
CHIRAC CHOOSES SARKOZY AS HIS 'PREFERRED' SUCCESSOR!
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21032007/325/chirac-backs-sarkozy-presidential-bid.html
FRANCE WILL REMAIN A DICTATORSHIP!
GLOBAL MEDIA GOES WILD!
NOT.
Posted by: Aleks | March 21, 2007 6:29 AM
Al,
First, you said I denied that slavery existed in the USSR, tell me when I said or eluded to such, I never said this. You are lying. What I did was post facts that the US had slavery whenever you start rambling about history.
For me, this is personal as my wife is Belarusian and she is proud of her country and we work our lives and investments in living in Belarus and Russia. You’d have to be a short termed moron to invest in the US today, be it on fundamentals or markets.
For this personal reason, my language was not proper, so I apologize to the RussiaBlob. However Al, you look at the CIS and see the USSR. This triggers me to bring up history of the US. Your silly "old data" required my silly "old data". You can talk about Soviet abuses as if it’s today’s Russia, yet I know Americans that remember the lynchings of their relatives in the south.
What's the point of all this when we should focus on the “here and now”. Remember the past but don't be so obsessed with it. There are many investors who linger on history or stereo types and they are losing the opportunities in the CIS. These same investors assume the US will last forever. They are as hypnotized as Bush is on Iraq.
You pick things apart like the USSR is still alive. The Warsaw pact is dead, and NATO is next. The USSR is dead, and “others” are working diligently towards the same self absorbing, suicidal goal.
Al, please, put your money in America, be it in US housing or 401k, hedge funds and insurance investments tied to subprime mortgages, I just don't care.
My "hobby" is to post, once in a while, sarcastic comments whenever some idiot equates Russia or Belarus to the USSR. America is stuck in paranoia while Russia and her partners embrace and implement the future.
Posted by: Luther G. Quick | March 21, 2007 9:57 AM
to Luther G. Quick :
You are not responding on my
comments again , so, I have to group my comments trying to preserve come logical thread in the discussion:
1.
slavery in USSR,Russia and USA
“First, you said I denied that slavery existed in the USSR, tell me when I said or eluded to such, I never said this. You are lying.”
You were denying or at least you did elude fact of slavery in USSR in the following exchange
I wrote:
“About slavery. You are going to move to Russia and Belarus and both these civilizations are entirely built on slavery . Gulag was a Stalin’s slavery. And enslaved soviet people where the main driving force for building this relative prosperity which you are going to enjoy.”
Your response:
“Al, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn says you are dead wrong.”
It does not look like you were agree with the fact of slavery in USSR, and you are definitely eluded that.
But if you are agree with the fact of slavery in USSR (do you?? you still did not confirm it clearly on the record) , then you at least, you have to admit that soviet slavery is one of the factors which make your investment in Belarus in Russia so attractive. Because without soviet slavery ( gualag) neither Russian economy nor Belarusian economy today would not be the same. Slavery in soviet union in form of gulag was a crucial factor of building of existing on territory of former USSR economies.
Prove me wrong!
“What I did was post facts that the US had slavery whenever you start rambling about history.”
Really? You did post facts that the US had slavery??? Thank you Luther! now me and all readers of the blog ,( thanks to you ) know and will remember that the US had slavery. It is a very valuable input in the discussion. Very educational . Well.. did you post any other historical data? I guess not. So, may be it is all you know about history ? And if so, may be instead of writing as a hobby you will do some reading as a hobby??
Why we are talking about CIS in historical context ? Because you did refer the fact of American slavery to the context of modern CIS history .
You wrote :“make American dream happen in the CIS (sorry no black slaves to help you, and no Indian or Mexican land for you to annex”
Those above are your words . It is you who is linking today’s CIS with history of past centuries
My response ( “rumbling” in your kind words ) was :
the stipulation that somehow prosperity of today’s Russia built with no blood of other people and countries is uninformed and propagandistic. Please prove my “rumbling” below as incorrect
a) Siberia is the territory acquired by Russia on the same way as American territory were acquired by Europeans .
b) Mexican territory acquired by USA, same were in Russia for example Crimea was 1783 annexed outright by Russia .
c) Russia had slavery in the same time as the USA had. Russians just enslaved their own people not Africans. So, stipulation that Russia built its prosperity somehow less using slavery than USA is very “hobbyist”
If by 1861 slavery was abolished in half of the USA in Russia in all territory of Russian empire was slavery. So, technically, Russia has more slavery driven legacy that USA .
d) Unlike USA, USSR in the second part of 20th century did committed acts of genocide by eliminating and forcefully resettling Chechens, Ingushes and Crimean Tatars
e) Unlike USA ,USSR had slavery during 20 century – GULAG
So, if you are trying to built somehow better moral ground for Russian prosperity than for prosperity in USA you have no foundation for that .
2.
CIS versus Russia and USSR
“However Al, you look at the CIS and see the USSR.”
I do not do that and you have no reason to presume that from my words
My parallels with soviet union were forced by your permanent references to soviet union,
For example you wrote :
“So how much power do 3rd parties have in America? About as much power as a none communist party in the Soviet Union had.”
another example :
you wrote :“Voting by delegate was something Saddam and Stalin used, not exactly the same but voting by popular vote”
and so on.
(I proved both of yourstatements as very ignorant , by the way )
So, it is proven that you are doing permanent references to soviet union .
I do think that CIS and USSR are two very different things .However , the strange stipulation that Russia is somehow has nothing to do with soviet union is very bizarre and at least not obvious to me. Let us see together :
1. Russia and not a CIS is the legal inheritor of soviet union .
Does it mean anything to you ?
2. Name me please one country which changed its legal and state identity 3 times during last 100 years! Only Russia. So, if you are stating new legal identity 3 times during 100 years you have to admit certain connection between all periods otherwise the whole idea of state is a sort of shaky. You cannot 3 times during 100 years change the state and keep saying that everything what was done before is a fault of those who were before us.
3. Was anybody prosecuted or punished for genocide of own people in Soviet union? NO! No Nuremberg trial for Gulag masters. If Russia is not a soviet union why it never officially on the state level prosecuted those who did horrific acts of genocide?
3. Personal issues
“my language was not proper”
It is still not proper but I do not blame you : it is just your hobby after all .
By the way , if you have a premeditated plan to be sarcastic you have to be ready to withstand sarcasm directed on you without being obscene and hysterical , pal.
Your personal reasons:
“For me, this is personal as my wife is Belarusian and she is proud of her country”
Good for you pal,
Just a question:
Knowing that, in your own words, you know only “of two types of Russians (CIS) in [your] town, those that RUN away from the CIS because of their own failures and those that came here, thinking the streets were made of gold,” ( your words are in question marks)
I wonder which of those two types is your wife?
Does your wife ,as other immigrants, in your understanding, came in America only “for Wal-Mart, fried chicken and burgers, cheap cars, cheap stick houses, and cheap food” ? In quotation marks are your own words.
I wonder, does your wife is one of those people ?
Knowing that, as you said, you “have fun poking at these “types” of immigrants” I bet your wife enjoy this poking?
4. Financial future and moral ground:
“Al, please, put your money in America, be it in US housing or 401k, hedge funds and insurance investments tied to subprime mortgages,”
I see nothing wrong in investments in CIS and I sincerely wish all the best to all countries including CIS where I still have family, friends and history.
But, is it about investments or it is about moral for you?
If it is about investment, then go ahead be reach. But if it is about moral , please, stop your moralization of USA and do remember that you are going to be reach in the country which , historically, is not on any higher than USA moral position, arguably even worse .
You are going to capitalize on numerous morally wrong things which are in foundation of this country.
6.
Why is that being pro- Russia is necessarily mean omission of inconvenient parts of Russian history?
Why is being pro- Russia requires the sugar-coating today’s realty in CIS and Russia ?
Why is being pro- Russia means trying to make an illusion that Russia is equal in freedoms to the west ?
Why you can appreciate Russia as it is ,with all her aberrations and disadvantages ?
I can .
I think that Russia does not need all your “ help” in distortion of truth . It is different country, with own way and own reality, which is different from western reality . Always was and always will be , in my view.
And , in my view, NOTHING IS WRONG WITH THAT.
Manufacturing and spreading of anti-American bias is not helping neither Russia nor anybody else with an exception of professional demagogies and “ hobbyists” on both sides
“America is stuck in paranoia while Russia”
I agree with that Luther!!!!
you see we have something to agree with !!!
I think that attitude of America to Russia is grossly unfair, silly and counterproductive. I wrote about that in my comments numerous times before . I see very distorted picture of Russia in USA media and in public opinion.
But guess what, when you are writing historically wrong, morally twisted , insulting, “anti Russian immigrant” and “anti- any opponent” , anti- American, postings ,then, you and people like , are making thing much worse for understanding between Russians and Americans .
So, I think blogs like this one potentially , could be a place for building of mutual understating between Russians and Americans .
Discussion in internet can serve its goal of better understanding between people not spreading “hobbyist”, anti- immigrant and anti American bias.
The best thing that you can do for improving of understanding between Russia and USA is to change a hobby
You wrote :
“My "hobby" is to post, once in a while, sarcastic comments”
May be you will try fishing instead of writing as a hobby? There are many beautiful lakes in Belarus I can give you directions :)
trust me, it can not be worse than what you are doing now.
cheers:)
"AL"
Posted by: "AL" | March 22, 2007 7:50 AM
Al,
ROTFLMAO!!!!
You are dead wrong on everything you typed. I read it all; it's all a bunch of nonsense.
1) How old are you?
2) What did you do with your carrer in the USSR and here in the US?
3) Have accomplished anything in the US with your life?
Good grief!!!
Posted by: Luther G. Quick | March 22, 2007 2:14 PM
to Luther G. Quick :
You are never responding on my comments. You are not answering any concrete questions.
Your slur is just a pathetic form of self-defense . But, unless you are answering questions and making substantive responses on my comments, your inability to have a coherent discussion on the issues is obvious.
It does not matter who I am. Important is what I am saying. If you have anything to say in your defense , then be my guest. Otherwise, I consider that your demagoguery is exposed clearly enough and proven as a demagoguery ( see transcripts of my postings above).
I will see you again when/if you post another posting which will contain any demagoguery. Every single pathetic lie of yours every piece of demagoguery will be confronted. Your free ride on this blog is over. So long:)
"AL"
Posted by: "AL" | March 23, 2007 3:45 AM
Al,
I have answered earlier, and each and every time you twist things around, distort and or expand your agendas. No matter how much you “type”, reality will not change.
Basically, you got a green card, and US citizenship, and to that end, America's mistakes and lies are GOOD - in your view. Russia could do the exact same thing America does and you would join a protest, cry for the loss of democracy, stuff some NGO money into the hands of the unemployed in Russia (for a protest), and scream that they are sliding back.
Be honest, this is about filling your wallet. You don’t care about Russian democracy; you only care about your democracy in America, and the “output” of consumption.
I hate to ruin your day, but the US flag will NEVER hang on top of the Kremlin. That I think would make you happy. You would be so warm inside, such a feeling of peace if Russia was like Iraq today. Heck, Bush told Putin to “just wait” and the US would spread its love and give Russia what America gave Iraq.
In your last post you stated that it should not matter "who you are", that your "words are enough". Well I disagree. You have no credentials, no proof that your expert opinion or Sigmund Freud analysis is valid.
Who you are “does matter”. Words are worthless. I get enough words of fairy tales watching my president Bush telling me how great things are with the economy, with the war, with America’s future. Words, like “mission accomplished”, or “jobs leaving, is a good thing”.
A country should be run like a business, or like SDLC in software development. Where project management takes analysis that is followed by architecture and followed by implementation and eventually deliverables. This, Al is what Russia is doing. It’s like Reaganomics for Russia.
But America is a special place where if you use enough words, the right language that eventually reality changes (so they think). So keep posting Al, if you need to feel better, but reality will not change. Type all the words you want Al, respond to as many of my posts as you need to validate yourself and fill what ever void you have, your words are as powerful as Bush’s when he declare “major operation over” on a friggen aircraft carrier.
Sorry Al, but you are like a cancer or a tumor and you sir are a mutant free radical growth sitting on the edge of your seat praying that Russia ends up like Iraq. You have no purpose but to be a gopher for the criminals that screwed up Iraq and want to do the same to the entire world. Suffering in the world is good for the US economy and will eventually propagate into your wallet – Al, this is your dream. World peace would ruin your consumption.
Posted by: Anonymous | March 23, 2007 8:23 AM
Anonymous - you sound like one of the Kos Kidz, having vanquished your equally anonymous antagonist at the end of a marathon 100 comment thread.
Just my two cents.
Posted by: Charles Ganske | March 23, 2007 9:29 PM
to "Anonymous' Luther G. Quick :)
This comments smells like Luther to me :)
It is good that Luther stopped using his name, playing a journalist.
I agree with Charles that it your posting sounds like Daily Kos paranoia
“I have answered earlier, and each and every time you twist things around, distort and or expand your agendas.’
Could you please copy and paste or point it out in any other way when and how you did respond on any of my comment or questions? You didn’t.
One more time again: nobody proved me wrong on any one single point presented in my numerous postings. As long as you have nothing to say substantially, enjoy your rudeness ( I am not responding to personal attacks) and enjoy your illusions ( who cares?). But remember, that every factual lie of yours will be confronted and exposed as such.
cheers :)
"AL"
Posted by: "AL" | March 24, 2007 10:06 AM
Charles,
Yes, that was me... it seams many people keep forgetting to type their info.
I slipped once, so send in the Marines. Kneel me down and put a bullet in my head, already.
Next Al starts jumping in as well, like I'm hiding or something (I'm still waiting for the genius to reveal his email or web site).
Yet below are two times AL decided to hide and refused to put his info.
http://www.russiablog.org/2007/03/why_russians_feel_pressured_by.php#comment-56280
http://www.russiablog.org/2007/03/why_russians_feel_pressured_by.php#comment-56283
In other words, when Al does it, it's ok.
Its kind of like when the US is pointing at Russia about Chechnya while America is water boarding, electrocuting prisoner's groin at Gitmo, or raping children in Iraq.
So, I do apologize, the phone rang, I got side tracked with a customer and did not type my info. Seams pretty obvious that I was addressing someone, and was continuing the thread. And you have my IP address(s). This isn't rocket science.
As for my comment, it's one of my canned comments, it works elsewhere.
And as for Kos Kidz, I don't visit the site (rare). And they are too liberal.
To Al, I'll answer your questions AFTER you stop hiding and answer the easy questions I gave you.
Cheers :)
"Luther"
Posted by: Luther G. Quick | March 24, 2007 2:49 PM